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We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Old Jun 17th 2020, 2:23 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

One of the best museums I've ever been to was the Peace Museum in Hiroshima.

It details in facts what happened with the atom bombs and then explains the story of how those bombs came to exist and then the further development of bigger ones, hydrogen bombs and so forth. There's no emotion or opinion, just stories.

Then, the last and possibly largest chunk of the museum is focused on what has been done since to stop atomic weapons / nuclear disarmament etc.

Could something similar work with some of these statues? Factual depiction of what they did because we all know slavery was abhorrent, but it happened. The chap in Bristol who got torn down was a bastard for slavery and making money out of it, but you could factually tell the story of what he did and what he then did with a lot of the money for different aspects of the community. It doesn't justify it or make it right, it's just the whole story of that individual and era.

The flip side is the War Museum in Ho Chi Minh. It's ****ing brutal. The propaganda type language ("the devil Americans") was used widely in exhibits and told a very one sided story of selected parts of the war.

History should be told in facts because the minute it splits into two opinions, you often lose 50% of the story and facts. Opinion pieces and debates around effects or causes are really relevant and important but shouldn't be what's driven home in a one sided manner by a museum, in my opinion.
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Old Jun 17th 2020, 2:55 pm
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Solves the problem?
What problem?
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Old Jun 17th 2020, 3:00 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Scamp: Good points, but adding on a piece of bronze plaque with "oh by the way, he used some of the money to found an orphanage or school" might not be enough. I've never been in a civil war museum, but suspect they can't do much to romance the facts around these days. The RCMP Museum in Regina had exhibits chronicling the Force that were used in actions accepted as being atrocities now, and the Royal Saskatchewan Museum had culturally sensitive stuff on display that never should have been in their possession. I'm guessing that's largely been cleaned up now. Maybe every military museum should have a disclaimer and statement about man's inhumanity to man at the entrance. I was in an artillery museum and a tank museum and there certainly wasn't.
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Old Jun 17th 2020, 3:16 pm
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
. There's no emotion or opinion, just stories.
Without opinion being the primary motivator, we would have no museums. It is why eyebrows are raised when people see the sign to the lawnmower museum in Southport.
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Then, the last and possibly largest chunk of the museum is focused on what has been done since to stop atomic weapons / nuclear disarmament etc..
It appear that the museum you talk about does have an opinion, an overt opinion.
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Factual depiction of what they did because we all know slavery was abhorrent, but it happened.
Nothing wrong with facts.
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
you could factually tell the story of what he did.......... it's just the whole story of that individual and era.
You will have to justify why he should be included, then justify why that particular statue should be included [this is the crucial question, even if worthy of inclusion, why does that statue need to be used to represent him, rather than other objects], then justify why including it is more important than not including it. All of these answers are opinions. The answer to these questions will vary on the purpose of the museum (which should be the starting point, the first point that should be mentioned) I can see arguments for inclusion in a museum of the history of Bristol, less so for a museum of slavery, A museum has to start with the question, what story is it going to tell (which is an opinion, that the story is worth telling) In the Bristol case, probably only someone knowledgeable with Bristol could probably give us an informed opinion (there is that word again).
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
The flip side is the War Museum in Ho Chi Minh. It's ****ing brutal. The propaganda type language ("the devil Americans") was used widely in exhibits and told a very one sided story of selected parts of the war.
Thats a bit more than opinion, and more towards overt propaganda
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
History should be told in facts because the minute it splits into two opinions, you often lose 50% of the story and facts. Opinion pieces and debates around effects or causes are really relevant and important but shouldn't be what's driven home in a one sided manner by a museum, in my opinion.
Note that you have just given an opinion on what a museum should be.
The choice of facts, is the expression of opinion, there is no museum on Earth that is devoid of opinion. The less of an opinion it has, the more it approaches a warehouse, until it is expressing the opinion that it just doesn't care about the contents.
Museums like any other form of communication, art, literature, the opinion of its creator or curator is less important than the opinion taken away by the observer, who bring their own prior knowledge, expectations, experiences, and world view, all of which affect what they take away as their redrawn opinion
While curators are human, we will have opinion, and each of them probably considers their opinion to be the most fair. While we still think that a museum is or can be blind to opinion, we are stuck in the status quo at best, or blind to subtle propaganda, handled better than the Vietnamese. Next time you go to a museum, any museum, ask yourself, what are the opinions of the curators? It is the first question to start asking when you enter a museum.
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Old Jun 17th 2020, 3:23 pm
  #50  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Without opinion being the primary motivator, we would have no museums. It is why eyebrows are raised when people see the sign to the lawnmower museum in Southport.

It appear that the museum you talk about does have an opinion, an overt opinion.

Nothing wrong with facts.

You will have to justify why he should be included, then justify why that particular statue should be included [this is the crucial question, even if worthy of inclusion, why does that statue need to be used to represent him, rather than other objects], then justify why including it is more important than not including it. All of these answers are opinions. The answer to these questions will vary on the purpose of the museum (which should be the starting point, the first point that should be mentioned) I can see arguments for inclusion in a museum of the history of Bristol, less so for a museum of slavery, A museum has to start with the question, what story is it going to tell (which is an opinion, that the story is worth telling) In the Bristol case, probably only someone knowledgeable with Bristol could probably give us an informed opinion (there is that word again).

Thats a bit more than opinion, and more towards overt propaganda

Note that you have just given an opinion on what a museum should be.
The choice of facts, is the expression of opinion, there is no museum on Earth that is devoid of opinion. The less of an opinion it has, the more it approaches a warehouse, until it is expressing the opinion that it just doesn't care about the contents.
Museums like any other form of communication, art, literature, the opinion of its creator or curator is less important than the opinion taken away by the observer, who bring their own prior knowledge, expectations, experiences, and world view, all of which affect what they take away as their redrawn opinion
While curators are human, we will have opinion, and each of them probably considers their opinion to be the most fair. While we still think that a museum is or can be blind to opinion, we are stuck in the status quo at best, or blind to subtle propaganda, handled better than the Vietnamese. Next time you go to a museum, any museum, ask yourself, what are the opinions of the curators? It is the first question to start asking when you enter a museum.
It's my opinion that's a
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Old Jun 17th 2020, 8:55 pm
  #51  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by el collado kid View Post
I for one want museums history books and even some statues the good and the bad, one example(Joan of arc).If we destroy our history how do we learn from our past,how do we learn not to make the mistakes ,how do we learn the way forward.Who decides what we burn what we keep,or even where we go.If our past is blank who are we???
To the victor go the spoils.
Which makes the Confederate statues a bit of a misnomer.

If we are going to be done with all statues that portray slave traders and colonials who went stomping over other nations we might as well scrub every British statue of persona from the 1700's through to WWII and a fair few prior to the 1700's. What about Lizzie, sat in Buck Palace, Windsor, etc which were built from the spoils of Empire building or Henry VIII for his atrocities against women?

And maybe we shouldn't be honouring the mighty Oak either, as it's dust is carcinogenic...
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Old Jun 18th 2020, 3:36 am
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I know, it was in the post I quoted...

Many of the activists I mentioned were arrested and sent to jail or prison for protesting. Yet ultimately, their protests succeeded in changing the status quo, which shows the status quo deserved to be protested.
Other people, none involved here.
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Old Jun 18th 2020, 5:13 am
  #53  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
Scamp: Good points, but adding on a piece of bronze plaque with "oh by the way, he used some of the money to found an orphanage or school" might not be enough. I've never been in a civil war museum, but suspect they can't do much to romance the facts around these days. The RCMP Museum in Regina had exhibits chronicling the Force that were used in actions accepted as being atrocities now, and the Royal Saskatchewan Museum had culturally sensitive stuff on display that never should have been in their possession. I'm guessing that's largely been cleaned up now. Maybe every military museum should have a disclaimer and statement about man's inhumanity to man at the entrance. I was in an artillery museum and a tank museum and there certainly wasn't.
No I agree there, justifying actions with other actions is a road going nowhere.
It's hard to romance anything, but if it's a linear story of events around a war, it surely can be done in a relatively neutral way.

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Without opinion being the primary motivator, we would have no museums. It is why eyebrows are raised when people see the sign to the lawnmower museum in Southport.

It appear that the museum you talk about does have an opinion, an overt opinion.

Nothing wrong with facts.

You will have to justify why he should be included, then justify why that particular statue should be included [this is the crucial question, even if worthy of inclusion, why does that statue need to be used to represent him, rather than other objects], then justify why including it is more important than not including it. All of these answers are opinions. The answer to these questions will vary on the purpose of the museum (which should be the starting point, the first point that should be mentioned) I can see arguments for inclusion in a museum of the history of Bristol, less so for a museum of slavery, A museum has to start with the question, what story is it going to tell (which is an opinion, that the story is worth telling) In the Bristol case, probably only someone knowledgeable with Bristol could probably give us an informed opinion (there is that word again).

Thats a bit more than opinion, and more towards overt propaganda

Note that you have just given an opinion on what a museum should be.
The choice of facts, is the expression of opinion, there is no museum on Earth that is devoid of opinion. The less of an opinion it has, the more it approaches a warehouse, until it is expressing the opinion that it just doesn't care about the contents.
Museums like any other form of communication, art, literature, the opinion of its creator or curator is less important than the opinion taken away by the observer, who bring their own prior knowledge, expectations, experiences, and world view, all of which affect what they take away as their redrawn opinion
While curators are human, we will have opinion, and each of them probably considers their opinion to be the most fair. While we still think that a museum is or can be blind to opinion, we are stuck in the status quo at best, or blind to subtle propaganda, handled better than the Vietnamese. Next time you go to a museum, any museum, ask yourself, what are the opinions of the curators? It is the first question to start asking when you enter a museum.
So we only have museums because people have an opinion? I'm not sure I get your first bit.

I guess there is a bit of an influence at the end, but the whole museum is linear, story (fact) telling and the final section concludes with what they've managed to achieve with world groups and governments to aid nuclear disarmament. 90% of what they display and discuss is just information, if the last 10% is to that end, I don't think many people would walk away thinking they've been through a brutal experience.

I think the statue was just a good example. It would have to be a pretty specific museum wouldn't it? Museum of Statues? With a special exhibit constantly updating with new features when the public realise someone held values/beliefs or did things we no longer agree with.

What's wrong with giving an opinion on what a museum should be? I'm not a museum.

I do get your point but I think you've deliberately gone as far the other way as possible. There are plenty of museums that tell great stories with hanging any one or any group out to dry or overly praising others. There are plenty who do this to differing extents. I don't question any of that at all. People build opinions from information. If a museum provides information with very little to no bias, it's doing a super job in my opinion. Often they can't be perfect because they're going to use material from the period / issue being discussed, which inevitably will be biased, but the presentation of this is what matters. As part of a larger story with a narrative and explanation it can be a powerful way of informing people of what happened, even why or factors contributing to why.

Anyway, this talk of museums makes me miss them. The 'Dubai Museum' is worth the 50p entrance fee for a laugh and the photos but not much else.
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Old Jun 18th 2020, 8:55 am
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
No I agree there, justifying actions with other actions is a road going nowhere.
It's hard to romance anything, but if it's a linear story of events around a war, it surely can be done in a relatively neutral way.



So we only have museums because people have an opinion? I'm not sure I get your first bit.

I guess there is a bit of an influence at the end, but the whole museum is linear, story (fact) telling and the final section concludes with what they've managed to achieve with world groups and governments to aid nuclear disarmament. 90% of what they display and discuss is just information, if the last 10% is to that end, I don't think many people would walk away thinking they've been through a brutal experience.

I think the statue was just a good example. It would have to be a pretty specific museum wouldn't it? Museum of Statues? With a special exhibit constantly updating with new features when the public realise someone held values/beliefs or did things we no longer agree with.

What's wrong with giving an opinion on what a museum should be? I'm not a museum.

I do get your point but I think you've deliberately gone as far the other way as possible. There are plenty of museums that tell great stories with hanging any one or any group out to dry or overly praising others. There are plenty who do this to differing extents. I don't question any of that at all. People build opinions from information. If a museum provides information with very little to no bias, it's doing a super job in my opinion. Often they can't be perfect because they're going to use material from the period / issue being discussed, which inevitably will be biased, but the presentation of this is what matters. As part of a larger story with a narrative and explanation it can be a powerful way of informing people of what happened, even why or factors contributing to why.

Anyway, this talk of museums makes me miss them. The 'Dubai Museum' is worth the 50p entrance fee for a laugh and the photos but not much else.
Why is it a laugh?? Just interested.
A really good programme on BBC this week. Samira Ahmed 'Art of Persia', showing the ancient Zoroastrian artefacts etc.

Just read that Vera Lynn has passed away! Part of UK history!

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Old Jun 18th 2020, 9:00 am
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Why is it a laugh?? Just interested.
A really good programme on BBC this week. Samira Ahmed 'Art of Persia', showing the ancient Zoroastrian artefacts etc.

Just read that Vera Lynn has passed away! Part of UK history!
It's just a bit dated. The photographs are superb showing where the city has come from but the models depicting what life was like before are pure retro and a bit tragic for somewhere that prides itself on being so glam.
Still, it's worth a visit for anyone.

I've heard of that show, my Dad watched I think and said it's good. It's Iranian Persia focused right? I'll have to give it a go.
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Old Jun 18th 2020, 9:06 am
  #56  
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post

...
So we only have museums because people have an opinion? I'm not sure I get your first bit.

I guess there is a bit of an influence at the end, but the whole museum is linear, story (fact) telling and the final section concludes with what they've managed to achieve with world groups and governments to aid nuclear disarmament. 90% of what they display and discuss is just information, if the last 10% is to that end, I don't think many people would walk away thinking they've been through a brutal experience.
...
When I read the original post I did wonder why having a section including nuclear disarmament necessarily meant that they had an opinion.

I can of course see why Japan might have opinion on it.
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Old Jun 18th 2020, 9:55 am
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
I can of course see why Japan might have opinion on it.
Did they ever manage to include the full scope of Japanese war crimes into their school history texts? There were a lot of people upset that Emperor Hirohito wasn't hung after the war, let alone that he was left in power. They could have a River Kwai museum with replica prison camp, a mock-up brothel with mannequins of Korean "comfort women", and maybe a photo display of the rape of Nanking. Until today I didn't even know about Unit 731, where they experimented with poison gas on Manchurian captives. You could put that exhibit in China, I suppose, (if there isn't already one there), but the camps that were in Japan should be represented in Japan. Not taking away from the injustices done by the US and Canada to citizens of Japanese descent, but those are still being talked and written about, and the interrments are part of our historical record, (and taught in school).
I had a Japanese friend in school, and he'd been taught that Japan was forced into war by American sanctions and blockades; a theory I hadn't heard before. We visited and ate at each other's houses, and I remember his mother as a wonderful, kind, nurturing person (and I loved her cooking), but his dad seemed very formal, not much smiling. I think he was a doctor. He had a big sword in a sheath about 5' long that he took everywhere. At breakfast it leaned against the wall behind his chair, and he put it on the back seat of the car and took it to work each day, where I think it propped up his office wall. My parents didn't say much, if anything (and I must have mentioned it). Perhaps because they were of the same generation and so many of their own families had been affected by the war, they knew that Mr Izumi would have to go through it in his own way. The war had been over for 20 years.

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Old Jun 18th 2020, 10:05 am
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
When I read the original post I did wonder why having a section including nuclear disarmament necessarily meant that they had an opinion.

I can of course see why Japan might have opinion on it.
I think I take the particular museum I mentioned at face value because it's in Hiroshima and the entire park, memorials and museum are about the atom bombs. War in general doesn't leave any participant without blood on their hands or 'war crimes' to answer to.

I guess the point relating to this museum was that their opinion was nuclear weapons shouldn't be used. So I guess the point is fair that there was an opinion given, even if most would find it sensible or agreeable. I hope someone else on this discussion has been there as it's a superb experience, in my opinion.
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Old Jun 25th 2020, 6:58 pm
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

The bronze statue depicts Major General Sir Henry Havelock KCB as a standing figure in military uniform, with a cloak. Havelock was born in 1795 and died in 1857. He served in the First Anglo-Burmese War in the 1820s and the First Anglo-Afghan War in the 1840s. He recaptured Cawnpore and Lucknow during the Indian Mutiny in 1857,

Taken one step further.Havelock Road in Southall could be renamed Guru Nanak Road in a first step to recognise Ealing’s diverse communities in public spaces, Ealing council leader Julian Bell has said.

The road is named after Sir Henry Havelock, a British Army general who violently put down the First Indian War of Independence in 1857.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-...itish-18396085

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Old Jun 25th 2020, 7:18 pm
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Default Re: We need to preserve history, Lets put these statues in a museum

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
The bronze statue depicts Major General Sir Henry Havelock KCB as a standing figure in military uniform, with a cloak. Havelock was born in 1795 and died in 1857. He served in the First Anglo-Burmese War in the 1820s and the First Anglo-Afghan War in the 1840s. He recaptured Cawnpore and Lucknow during the Indian Mutiny in 1857,

Taken one step further.Havelock Road in Southall could be renamed Guru Nanak Road in a first step to recognise Ealing’s diverse communities in public spaces, Ealing council leader Julian Bell has said.

The road is named after Sir Henry Havelock, a British Army general who violently put down the First Indian War of Independence in 1857.


https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-...itish-18396085
I think the first step is to rethink the phrase "Indian mutiny"
First War of Independence and Indian Rebellion of 1857 are two alternatives used by some.
edit: your link uses "First Indian War of Independence in 1857"

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