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To Vaccinate or Not..

To Vaccinate or Not..

Old Mar 29th 2019, 10:25 am
  #91  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Zoe Bell View Post
I'm going to be very careful what i say here to avoid breaking the site rules. But I'm sitting looking at my terminally ill father, 90% of his current health issues are caused by the polio he had as a child . Ironically the cancer that is killing him is not actually causing him any pain.
The polio still is 70+ years later
It is nothing short of obscene that as a society we are willing to casually discard decades of medical advancement that people in developing countries would sacrifice all to get their children protected

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.

What is being discussed is 'enforced' medical procedures against the wishes of a parent.
In the UK this is illegal without a court order. (Although enforced quarantine is used for certain infections).
The BMA has indicated it would not agree with compulsory vaccinations. It will be open to further discussion.



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Old Mar 29th 2019, 11:26 am
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Zoe Bell View Post
I'm going to be very careful what i say here to avoid breaking the site rules. But I'm sitting looking at my terminally ill father, 90% of his current health issues are caused by the polio he had as a child . Ironically the cancer that is killing him is not actually causing him any pain.
The polio still is 70+ years later

It is nothing short of obscene that as a society we are willing to casually discard decades of medical advancement that people in developing countries would sacrifice all to get their children protected
Well written.

I am sorry to hear of your fathers health issues.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 11:28 am
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.

What is being discussed is 'enforced' medical procedures against the wishes of a parent.
In the UK this is illegal without a court order. (Although enforced quarantine is used for certain infections).
The BMA has indicated it would not agree with compulsory vaccinations. It will be open to further discussion.
Fortunately laws can be changed, as this one apparently should be, so as to protect children from the decisions of "parents" who should (and mostly do) know better.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 11:37 am
  #94  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.

What is being discussed is 'enforced' medical procedures against the wishes of a parent.
In the UK this is illegal without a court order. (Although enforced quarantine is used for certain infections).
The BMA has indicated it would not agree with compulsory vaccinations. It will be open to further discussion.
It's balancing act - the rights of the parents to make decisions which by all rational measures are detrimental to the well-being of their children against the responsibility of the state to protect those children against those decisions.

I think the BMA have taken the path of least resistance.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 11:47 am
  #95  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
It's balancing act - the rights of the parents to make decisions which by all rational measures are detrimental to the well-being of their children against the responsibility of the state to protect those children against those decisions.
I think the BMA have taken the path of least resistance.
As regards the law -----not being vaccinated is not immediately detrimental to the well-being of the child. They may never contract any of the diseases they would be vaccinated against.
It is not a difficult procedure to give a baby a vaccination injection------would you be willing to do this against the wishes of a parent??

I am just arguing the legal point! Obviously more education is the answer.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 11:59 am
  #96  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As regards the law -----not being vaccinated is not immediately detrimental to the well-being of the child. They may never contract any of the diseases they would be vaccinated against.
It is not a difficult procedure to give a baby a vaccination injection------would you be willing to do this against the wishes of a parent??

I am just arguing the legal point! Obviously more education is the answer.
No, it's not immediately detrimental - lots of things aren't like not wearing seatbelts, smoking, overeating and so on but that doesn't make them any less dangerous - just less obvious.

The issue is purely emotional not rational. It's 'sticking a needle in a screaming infant and injecting poison'. No I wouldn't want to do it but that's irrelevant - anyway I wouldn't advocate *forcible* vaccination.

Education is one answer but not the only one. Another might be incentives or penalties - loss of benefits, loss of educational options etc. - difficult without punishing the innocent child but should be considered.

I believe Australia does this sort of thing - I'll see if I can find out.


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Old Mar 29th 2019, 1:51 pm
  #97  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

So, to which of these vaccine-preventable illnesses are anti-vax parents willing to expose their children?

The last one my son had was a meningitis booster due to an outbreak at his uni. Before that, he had the HPV series which is a great example of protecting others. Some forms of HPV are responsible for the development of cervical cancer in young women, and it's sexually transmitted.

Note, also, that smallpox is not on the list. It was declared eradicated in 1979 because of effective universal vaccination.

https://www.who.int/immunization/diseases/en/

Available vaccinesIn the works:Pipeline vaccines

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Mar 29th 2019 at 1:55 pm.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
So, to which of these vaccine-preventable illnesses are anti-vax parents willing to expose their (and other peoples) children?
Slight amendment.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:23 pm
  #99  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Nutek View Post
Slight amendment.

Yes, very true.

But I was thinking on a personal level, as a parent. How can anyone look at their child and imagine failing to protect them against these illnesses? My thought is that much of it is because they don't think their children will get the illness in question - because, thanks to vaccination, in the developed world relatively few cases occur compared to the past, and so many parents aren't even aware. But I would be willing to bet that at the first signs of a real outbreak of something, where children these anti-vaxxers actually know start dying, they will be lining up to get the shots.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:33 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yes, very true.

But I was thinking on a personal level, as a parent. How can anyone look at their child and imagine failing to protect them against these illnesses? My thought is that much of it is because they don't think their children will get the illness in question - because, thanks to vaccination, in the developed world relatively few cases occur compared to the past, and so many parents aren't even aware. But I would be willing to bet that at the first signs of a real outbreak of something, where children these anti-vaxxers actually know start dying, they will be lining up to get the shots.
Relying on other parents to protect your kids by vaccinating theirs seems a bit off doesn't it?
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:40 pm
  #101  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As regards the law -----not being vaccinated is not immediately detrimental to the well-being of the child. They may never contract any of the diseases they would be vaccinated against.
It is not a difficult procedure to give a baby a vaccination injection------would you be willing to do this against the wishes of a parent??

I am just arguing the legal point! Obviously more education is the answer.
This is a bunch of crap, and I strongly suggest you know that. Not wearing a seatbelt isn't immediately detrimental to the well-being of a child. They may never be involved in an accident. Playing on a building site may not be immediately detrimental to the well being of a child - it's quite likely that a girder will not fall on their head. Yet society is quite happy to enforce laws concerning seatbelts, or not playing on building sites, against the wishes of parents.

If I were a politician I would be advocating for the same legal emphasis to be placed on vaccination as has been placed on other child safety measures. And if I were a medical professional, I would welcome such a change in legislative environment so that if necessary I could vaccinate children against the wishes of their parents if necessary, with the support of the legal system behind me.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:41 pm
  #102  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Nutek View Post
Relying on other parents to protect your kids by vaccinating theirs seems a bit off doesn't it?
Not exceptionally principled, no.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:42 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yes, very true.

But I was thinking on a personal level, as a parent. How can anyone look at their child and imagine failing to protect them against these illnesses? My thought is that much of it is because they don't think their children will get the illness in question - because, thanks to vaccination, in the developed world relatively few cases occur compared to the past, and so many parents aren't even aware. But I would be willing to bet that at the first signs of a real outbreak of something, where children these anti-vaxxers actually know start dying, they will be lining up to get the shots.

I agree with all you have said.
I think that the meningitis C vaccine that you mentioned should be available to all, not just babies and teenagers. It is very expensive to get it done privately.

I am just pointing out the UK law, also the practical process of vaccinating a baby without its its parents consent.
Consent laws are ingrained into the psyche of UK medics!

(Your available list----there is no vaccine available for dengue or malaria. though for the latter other research is being done.)


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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:46 pm
  #104  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I agree with all you have said.
I think that the meningitis C vaccine that you mentioned should be available to all, not just babies and teenagers. It is very expensive to get it done privately.

I am just pointing out the UK law, also the practical process of vaccinating a baby without its its parents consent.
Consent laws are ingrained into the psyche of UK medics!

(Your available list----there is no vaccine available for dengue or malaria. though for the latter other research is being done.)
Laws can be changed. That is why politicians need to be thoroughly informed and ought to be taking an active part in this debate.

Did you read the links LiW included in her list? A dengue vaccine has been licensed and in use in Mexico since 2015. Release candidate vaccines for Malaria have been evaluated in large-scale trials and have been recommended for pilot field studies.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 2:48 pm
  #105  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
No, it's not immediately detrimental - lots of things aren't like not wearing seatbelts, smoking, overeating and so on but that doesn't make them any less dangerous - just less obvious.

The issue is purely emotional not rational. It's 'sticking a needle in a screaming infant and injecting poison'. No I wouldn't want to do it but that's irrelevant - anyway I wouldn't advocate *forcible* vaccination.

Education is one answer but not the only one. Another might be incentives or penalties - loss of benefits, loss of educational options etc. - difficult without punishing the innocent child but should be considered.

I believe Australia does this sort of thing - I'll see if I can find out.
Family assistance payments linked to immunisation
Families’ eligibility to receive family assistance payments, such as Family Tax Benefit and Child Care Subsidy, is linked to their child’s immunisation status. Only families who fully immunise their children, are on a recognised immunisation catch-up schedule, or have an approved medical exemption can receive those family assistance payments. Vaccination objection will no longer be a valid exemption.
Department of Health | Immunisation
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