Ukraine

Old Apr 8th 2014, 9:40 pm
  #631  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Don,t be silly they are of course independent countries and have been for 100s years. Some were creations.of colonialism, or by warfare and deceit ( the USA ), But none of them are the creation of a few self seeking corrupt politicians sat in an office in Moscow in the 1990.s.
History corrects anomalies usually by force if not chaos prevails.
East Prussia was once German with a population of millions of Germans, it is now part of Poland, why because Stalin took eastern Poland incl parts ofthe UKraine and gave Poland East Prussia. The Poles then evicted the Germans as did the Czechs.
The world no longer concerns its self with the fate of the Germans or the lands taken from them by force it is now accepted as part of history.
The west will prefer peace and a stable Europe to a Russia at odds with parts of the old USSR.
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 9:42 pm
  #632  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by rugbymatt View Post
You're still wrong.
Which partm are you saying or do you actually believe that theauntonomous soviet republics were self governing and free from Moscow.
Tell that to the millions wgo die in Stalins gulags.
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 9:45 pm
  #633  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Which partm are you saying or do you actually believe that theauntonomous soviet republics were self governing and free from Moscow.
Tell that to the millions wgo die in Stalins gulags.
You are focusing on one section of the Ukraines history. One snap shot in time, a brief moment in a long, long history of a country that has been recognised for over a thousand years. As I said. You are wrong and need to read the history of the country rather than listening and reading what RT says.....

You are wrong.
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 9:46 pm
  #634  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Which partm are you saying or do you actually believe that theauntonomous soviet republics were self governing and free from Moscow.
Tell that to the millions wgo die in Stalins gulags.
Well, the "wgo die" nie auntonomoses that stuud da mowntans. Issit reel reepublic dough?
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 9:56 pm
  #635  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by rugbymatt View Post
You are focusing on one section of the Ukraines history. One snap shot in time, a brief moment in a long, long history of a country that has been recognised for over a thousand years. As I said. You are wrong and need to read the history of the country rather than listening and reading what RT says.....

You are wrong.
The guy is hell bent on believing in whatever he believes in, even if arguing nonsense. Fortunately for him, he has the right to any opinion he wishes to entertain (still).

I think this discussion is getting silly now. We aren't dealing with a rational debater anymore.
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 10:17 pm
  #636  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
The guy is hell bent on believing in whatever he believes in, even if arguing nonsense. Fortunately for him, he has the right to any opinion he wishes to entertain (still).

I think this discussion is getting silly now. We aren't dealing with a rational debater anymore.
Were we ever ?
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 12:01 am
  #637  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by rugbymatt View Post
You are focusing on one section of the Ukraines history. One snap shot in time, a brief moment in a long, long history of a country that has been recognised for over a thousand years. As I said. You are wrong and need to read the history of the country rather than listening and reading what RT says.....

You are wrong.
I bet I have read far more about the history of Russia, and eastern Europe than those looking at wikipedia in recent weeks.
I have never seriously watched or listened to RT.
The Ukraine is a geographical area fought over and been part of this or that European or asian power since the start of recorded history.
You keep talking about a country that has been recognised for a 100O years.
Where in the history of Europe since the 15th century are there any substantive references to the Independent Kingdom of the Ukraine. A kingdom that existed for 100s years.
A country with its own rulers and economy that sent its own embassies to other major European countries. That formed alliances as an independent nation, that fought others as an independent nation. ??
It exists as did the other autonomus soviet republics because Lenin cleverly used nationalistic feelings within the various nationalities in the old Russian empire to form alliances to beat the various white armies during the civil war.
But once the war was over Lenin and his succesors like the Tzars enforced control from Moscow and the idea of an autonomous republic was just a myth.

I note that none of those debating have contradicted my assertion that if the USSR had not broken up the Ukraine would not be discussed in the west.

I thought more of you Am but obviusly you have joined others who when they canot make a valid contribution resort to the tactics of the playground.
I hope that this is not a trend I would hate to see you rank alongside DD.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 12:32 am
  #638  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
I bet I have read far more about the history of Russia, and eastern Europe than those looking at wikipedia in recent weeks.
I have never seriously watched or listened to RT.
The Ukraine is a geographical area fought over and been part of this or that European or asian power since the start of recorded history.
You keep talking about a country that has been recognised for a 100O years.
Where in the history of Europe since the 15th century are there any substantive references to the Independent Kingdom of the Ukraine. A kingdom that existed for 100s years.
A country with its own rulers and economy that sent its own embassies to other major European countries. That formed alliances as an independent nation, that fought others as an independent nation. ??
It exists as did the other autonomus soviet republics because Lenin cleverly used nationalistic feelings within the various nationalities in the old Russian empire to form alliances to beat the various white armies during the civil war.
But once the war was over Lenin and his succesors like the Tzars enforced control from Moscow and the idea of an autonomous republic was just a myth.

I note that none of those debating have contradicted my assertion that if the USSR had not broken up the Ukraine would not be discussed in the west.

I thought more of you Am but obviusly you have joined others who when they canot make a valid contribution resort to the tactics of the playground.
I hope that this is not a trend I would hate to see you rank alongside DD.
Yet no mention of the various independence movements and states set up nor of the numerous times they have been invaded, divided, sub divided etc... Oh and you're still wrong. Russia has not owned the Ukraine since the 14th century like you claimed originally.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 7:44 am
  #639  
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Default Re: Ukraine

All of this doesn't really matter.
I for one don't want them in the EU regardless of the Russian or American/EU bulls***. I don't understand why there is all this support for them when Countries who's people maintain "Honour" and dont have a hooker in every family are kept out. In Italy 30% of the prison population is made up of East Europeans
M

Last edited by Maybe1day; Apr 9th 2014 at 7:47 am.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 9:02 am
  #640  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Ukraine joining the EU is not part of this debate.

This debate is whether Russian military land seizures should be tolerated. It's a very dangerous precedent.

Some seem to believe it's perfectly OK, and will entertain even the most dubious justifications for it, for the sole purpose of snubbing their nose at the very system that enables them to participate in the debate and freely express their views in the first place.

But when it happens to you and yours, you would very likely have a different view of it. In fact, at the end of the day, I reckon those most in favour of Russian expansionism would be the first in line to to blame the west for "allowing it to happen". In any case, Russia's illegal military land grabs will always be the fault of the west in some way. Just as Vlad would like you to believe.

Just watch RT. They'll "prove" that all Ukrainians (at least the few that matter) want to join Russia, that Ukraine isn't a sovereign country and never has been, or that the US is secretly trying to annex Ukraine as the 171st state and steal all of its oil, just as it has done since the beginning of time - as Russia has already proven is the very reason for the extinction of dinosaurs. And that proves beyond any doubt that Ukraine is part of Russia.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 9:41 am
  #641  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Maybe1day View Post
All of this doesn't really matter.
I for one don't want them in the EU regardless of the Russian or American/EU bulls***. I don't understand why there is all this support for them when Countries who's people maintain "Honour" and dont have a hooker in every family are kept out. In Italy 30% of the prison population is made up of East Europeans
M


My feelings too. It's a shite country full of extremists.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 10:15 am
  #642  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post


My feelings too. It's a shite country full of extremists.
They've got some good boxers, in and out of parliament.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 10:21 am
  #643  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Ukraine joining the EU is not part of this debate.

This debate is whether Russian military land seizures should be tolerated. It's a very dangerous precedent.

Some seem to believe it's perfectly OK, and will entertain even the most dubious justifications for it, for the sole purpose of snubbing their nose at the very system that enables them to participate in the debate and freely express their views in the first place.

But when it happens to you and yours, you would very likely have a different view of it. In fact, at the end of the day, I reckon those most in favour of Russian expansionism would be the first in line to to blame the west for "allowing it to happen". In any case, Russia's illegal military land grabs will always be the fault of the west in some way. Just as Vlad would like you to believe.

Just watch RT. They'll "prove" that all Ukrainians (at least the few that matter) want to join Russia, that Ukraine isn't a sovereign country and never has been, or that the US is secretly trying to annex Ukraine as the 171st state and steal all of its oil, just as it has done since the beginning of time - as Russia has already proven is the very reason for the extinction of dinosaurs. And that proves beyond any doubt that Ukraine is part of Russia.
It is about and only about the rise of Russian power and identity with Putin not wanting to see the EU or Nato gain any more influence or territory in the old USSR.
Yes they wrap it up in Russian nationality etc etc .
It is the same with the west, are they really bothered about an area and the aspirations of a people who were ignored until recently.
No it is again all about expanding the EU and Nato.
The Ukrainians and Russians are just pawns in the old east west conflict.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 10:50 am
  #644  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
It is about and only about the rise of Russian power and identity with Putin not wanting to see the EU or Nato gain any more influence or territory in the old USSR.
Yes they wrap it up in Russian nationality etc etc .
It is the same with the west, are they really bothered about an area and the aspirations of a people who were ignored until recently.
No it is again all about expanding the EU and Nato.
The Ukrainians and Russians are just pawns in the old east west conflict.
Some problems with that excuse:

1. There is no USSR anymore. Some people still need to get used to that.

2. EU and NATO do not expand membership with military force.

3. In a democracy, politicians better be worried about the will and aspirations of voters, lest their political careers cease to exist. Obviously that doesn't apply to Russia's faux democracy.

But in all fairness to your views, the EU isn't exactly a democracy either. But I blame that on the apathy of a European population that has largely accepted subservience to a government that is actually supposed to serve the population. Our own fault. We asked for it.
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Old Apr 9th 2014, 11:02 am
  #645  
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Default Re: Ukraine

There may not be a USSR but Russia is expanding its control and influence in much of the old USSR where ever there are Russian speaking populations it can exploit.
This was inevitable. when ever there is a reaction ie the rapid collapse of the old USSR there will be an equal and opposite reaction. IE The resurgence of Russian nationality and aspirations.
You are right as far as how Nato and the EU expands but expansion is still their policy.
Democracy is a much abused word, ask those in the Ukraine if the new government is Democratic and elected by a majority.
Democracy means only that which each and every government and society wants it to mean.
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