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UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Old Oct 29th 2020, 8:54 pm
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Default UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Granted TIO is not always the place for calm and balanced discussion, but let's make an effort folks. No xenophobic comments please.

The question is how should Britain handle the existing and coming immigration from non-legal routes?

This weekend we had the tragedy of a family of five Irainians drowning in the Channel. One wonders why they would, as a young family, take that risk (crossing the Channel) when asylum procedures are possible in France or elsewhere in Europe. Even if they were tricked or mislead, it seems an extraordinary risk to take, compared to the safety of France. Somehow, taking the risk as a family, seems less understandable than, say, a young man making the journey alone. In any case, this raises the question on whether the UK should establish holding centres on Britain or somewhere else where such dangerous Channel crossings would no longer be risked.

And that in turn raises the wider question of how many refugees should Britain be prepared to accept annually. Actual numbers are never discussed, but surely that is something we as a country need to start discussing. Right now the policy seems to be keep head planted in the sand and hoping France and the Channel can keep numbers down, but that is not a realistic policy in my view.
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 9:40 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Granted TIO is not always the place for calm and balanced discussion, but let's make an effort folks. No xenophobic comments please.

The question is how should Britain handle the existing and coming immigration from non-legal routes?

This weekend we had the tragedy of a family of five Irainians drowning in the Channel. One wonders why they would, as a young family, take that risk (crossing the Channel) when asylum procedures are possible in France or elsewhere in Europe. Even if they were tricked or mislead, it seems an extraordinary risk to take, compared to the safety of France. Somehow, taking the risk as a family, seems less understandable than, say, a young man making the journey alone. In any case, this raises the question on whether the UK should establish holding centres on Britain or somewhere else where such dangerous Channel crossings would no longer be risked.

And that in turn raises the wider question of how many refugees should Britain be prepared to accept annually. Actual numbers are never discussed, but surely that is something we as a country need to start discussing. Right now the policy seems to be keep head planted in the sand and hoping France and the Channel can keep numbers down, but that is not a realistic policy in my view.

The people who are crossing the channel in boats seeking asylum are not following a non-legal route. This is worth clearing up, since the population at large is being taught to call them "illegals", which is not only incorrect but hugely unhelpful overall. Nobody may request asylum in the UK without being physically present in the UK. Once here, they may request asylum and their status is not illegal. Nor is their journey, as such.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/ref...-safe-country/


Imo, keeping people in holding centres would set off a minefield of problems as well as being rather less than civilized in my book. Migrant camps have never worked well.

Why the UK? I don't know - this article offers a comparison with France, pointing out that if you want to assimilate, work, and become part of society the UK is better for that than France. Still, the UK has received a tiny proportion of the refugees.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-so-attractive


The only other thing, at the risk of repeating myself, is that if you don't want refugees from war and deprivation we, the wealthy countries, should be going all out to help the countries of origin develop and provide for their own citizens and stop selling them weapons and otherwise using them for political and economic chess so that we can have access to their or their neighbours' resources.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Oct 29th 2020 at 9:44 pm.
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 10:16 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Completely agree that supporting and helping develop deprived countries is the best long term strategy. Not selling weaponry an absolute given.

Camps, anywhere, are a whole new set of problems, so the question then reverts to what's the policy? What are the numbers? If the numbers are unsustainable, would camps become inevitable?



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Old Oct 29th 2020, 10:39 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Completely agree that supporting and helping develop deprived countries is the best long term strategy. Not selling weaponry an absolute given.

The trouble being is that this approach is either an afterthought of disruption in the middle East etc. Or going to take far too long to enact.


​​​​​​There needs to be far more consensus among the EU on how to deal with the issues rather than it just being palmed off country to country.

it sounds insensitive but perhaps just distributing them all among EU countries would be a valid but temporary solution. Which would buy enough time to address some of the issues at source before the camps inevitably start filling up again..
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 10:42 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Phathamster View Post
The trouble being is that this approach is either an afterthought of disruption in the middle East etc. Or going to take far too long to enact.


​​​​​​There needs to be far more consensus among the EU on how to deal with the issues rather than it just being palmed off country to country.

it sounds insensitive but perhaps just distributing them all among EU countries would be a valid but temporary solution. Which would buy enough time to address some of the issues at source before the camps inevitably start filling up again..
Well, we are no longer in the EU, so the question at hand is what should Britain do ?
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 11:03 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Well, we are no longer in the EU, so the question at hand is what should Britain do ?
The recent tragedy were people from Iran. They would have no idea of the dangers of an ocean crossing. Surely the French police/others should do more to prevent these boats being sold and used to what these refugees would think was just a short quick distance.

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Old Oct 29th 2020, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The recent tragedy were people from Iran. They would have no idea of the dangers of an ocean crossing. Surely the French police/others should do more to prevent these boats being sold and used to what these refugees would think was just a short quick distance.
I think they would have an idea, we all have cellphones these days. Rumours of drownings must be rife in these communities. Having said that, I am sure the smugglers would have downplayed the risks. It's very sad.

It's easy to ask why the French don't do things differently, but they don't. And now, as non-EU neighbors we have even less leverage with them. So it does become a British question. The reality is that people make that crossing, and Britain has a moral obligation to pre-empt such journeys being made. For example, perhaps asylum processing claims and support could be made in France?
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 11:27 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Granted TIO is not always the place for calm and balanced discussion, but let's make an effort folks. No xenophobic comments please.

The question is how should Britain handle the existing and coming immigration from non-legal routes?

This weekend we had the tragedy of a family of five Irainians drowning in the Channel. One wonders why they would, as a young family, take that risk (crossing the Channel) when asylum procedures are possible in France or elsewhere in Europe. Even if they were tricked or mislead, it seems an extraordinary risk to take, compared to the safety of France. Somehow, taking the risk as a family, seems less understandable than, say, a young man making the journey alone. In any case, this raises the question on whether the UK should establish holding centres on Britain or somewhere else where such dangerous Channel crossings would no longer be risked.

And that in turn raises the wider question of how many refugees should Britain be prepared to accept annually. Actual numbers are never discussed, but surely that is something we as a country need to start discussing. Right now the policy seems to be keep head planted in the sand and hoping France and the Channel can keep numbers down, but that is not a realistic policy in my view.
Briefing: Safe and Legal Routes to the UK

Over the last 5 years, civil society has warned that attempts to make the route “unviable,” including the closure of refugee camps in Calais and increasingly restricted routes of entry to the UK, would lead to an increase in dangerous journeys and an increased reliance on traffickers and people smugglers. In 2019, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee warned that “a policy that focuses exclusively on closing borders will drive migrants to take more dangerous routes, and push them into the hands of criminal groups."
Not really a surprise that people are dying, is it. The government was warned this would happen.

We note that this pattern of ignoring expert advice, failing to engage with civil society and branding migrants as “criminal” regardless of their legal rights is the same set of conditions which led to the Windrush scandal.
Safe and Legal Routes of EntryFor almost all people fleeing desperate circumstances, hoping to reunite with family members in the UK or seeking security and a better life in the UK, there is simply no application form that exists and no process that can facilitate a safe and legal journey. The Home Office expects people to physically reach the UK before an asylum application can be lodged.
If asylum seekers and refugees were allowed to lodge applications at Embassies, UK Immigration / Customs in Calais, or other designated points, this could be avoided.

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The recent tragedy were people from Iran. They would have no idea of the dangers of an ocean crossing. Surely the French police/others should do more to prevent these boats being sold and used to what these refugees would think was just a short quick distance.
The French Police enforce French laws. Which French laws have the people selling these boats committed?
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 11:30 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
The reality is that people make that crossing, and Britain has a moral obligation to pre-empt such journeys being made. For example, perhaps asylum processing claims and support could be made in France?
Britain has a legal obligation to process asylum claims. UK rules for claiming asylum require asylum-seekers to be physically present in the UK, with no legal route to achieve that. Until Parliament changes the law, that's not an option, but I agree, there needs to be a better way.
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Old Oct 29th 2020, 11:36 pm
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Briefing: Safe and Legal Routes to the UK

If asylum seekers and refugees were allowed to lodge applications at Embassies, UK Immigration / Customs in Calais, or other designated points, this could be avoided.
Interesting policy recommendations, though aiming for a multi-lateral agreement will not stop tragedy in the short term.

Lodging applications outside the UK seems like a step in the right direction, would you advocate providing ex-UK applicants with financial support (otherwise it's ongoing Jungle conditions)? Would this not create an incentive for other refugees and/or migrants?
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Old Oct 30th 2020, 12:13 am
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Interesting policy recommendations, though aiming for a multi-lateral agreement will not stop tragedy in the short term.

Lodging applications outside the UK seems like a step in the right direction, would you advocate providing ex-UK applicants with financial support (otherwise it's ongoing Jungle conditions)? Would this not create an incentive for other refugees and/or migrants?
I know a couple of the JCWI team, they have some very good ideas.

From my viewpoint, I'd suggest the initial application be received wherever outside the UK deems appropriate, and that the application gives the applicants a travel document to enter the UK to report at a designated Reporting Centre. Said document to have biometric information for identity confirmation. The initial application would take a week or two before onward travel to the UK, where the continued asylum process would be conducted.

I'm sure there are things I'm missing, but it's a start. Who pays for their travel from initial application location to the UK would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

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Old Oct 30th 2020, 12:28 am
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I know a couple of the JCWI team, they have some very good ideas.

From my viewpoint, I'd suggest the initial application be received wherever outside the UK deems appropriate, and that the application gives the applicants a travel document to enter the UK to report at a designated Reporting Centre. Said document to have biometric information for identity confirmation. The initial application would take a week or two before onward travel to the UK, where the continued asylum process would be conducted.

I'm sure there are things I'm missing, but it's a start. Who pays for their travel from initial application location to the UK would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.
All sounds reasonable, aside from funding, housing, and incentive issues. Any idea of what JCWI are doing to advance their proposal ?



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Old Oct 30th 2020, 12:51 am
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
All sounds reasonable, aside from funding, housing, and incentive issues. Any idea of what JCWI are doing to advance their proposal ?
The main additional funding would be the external offices / staff, paperwork and issuing cards. I suggest that could be a joint Home Office-FCO responsibility. In the UK, asylum-seekers accommodation is already budgeted for through the Home Office.

I get the feeling the government is ignoring them more than usual. Maybe if they offered to provide PPE instead, they'd get somewhere!
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Old Oct 30th 2020, 6:44 am
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

A lot of people lost faith with europe after Merkel opened up the gates with her 'come here' plea to migrants. So I dont think theres a huge appetite to encourage more over although I reckon something will eventually be sorted for children one day. The Nice attacker today was a boatie and wont have helped matters
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Old Oct 30th 2020, 7:13 am
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Default Re: UK refugee immigration - sensible discussion only

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
The people who are crossing the channel in boats seeking asylum are not following a non-legal route. This is worth clearing up, since the population at large is being taught to call them "illegals", which is not only incorrect but hugely unhelpful overall. Nobody may request asylum in the UK without being physically present in the UK. Once here, they may request asylum and their status is not illegal. Nor is their journey, as such.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/ref...-safe-country/


Imo, keeping people in holding centres would set off a minefield of problems as well as being rather less than civilized in my book. Migrant camps have never worked well.

Why the UK? I don't know - this article offers a comparison with France, pointing out that if you want to assimilate, work, and become part of society the UK is better for that than France. Still, the UK has received a tiny proportion of the refugees.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-so-attractive


The only other thing, at the risk of repeating myself, is that if you don't want refugees from war and deprivation we, the wealthy countries, should be going all out to help the countries of origin develop and provide for their own citizens and stop selling them weapons and otherwise using them for political and economic chess so that we can have access to their or their neighbours' resources.
Crossing the Channel in a dingy or other small boat and overloaded is illegal. Simply crossing the Channel in a sailboat can also be illegal. There are rules ,laws and international regulations regarding crossing the Channel; of course it is an illegal route and it must follow that these people are illegal immigrants.
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