UK immigration post Brexit
Dec 9th 2019, 12:52 pm
#32
WWLLCJD?
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 23,140
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Expatrick
I retain some basic tenets of Christianity - but have moved far away from much of the dogma & doctrine.
Dec 9th 2019, 1:46 pm
#33
Who - me?
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 11,318
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Shard
If we Brexit, in a decade's time there will be many Indian and Chinese immigrants here, simply based on their huge populations and consequent high skill levels. Is that better than Eastern Europeans, debateble. At least neither the Chinese nor Indians are overly religious.
Originally Posted by Scamp
Why did you mention the 'I' word?
It's not "If", it's "When"
Dec 9th 2019, 2:00 pm
#34
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,060
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Shard
Scamp brought it up. Religious observance and religious fundamentalism are too different things. From what I've seen of Indians in Britain over the past fifty years, their religion is colourful and reasonably benign. It seems more cultural than anything else. Hmmm...I wonder if there's anyone on BE that might know about this. 
Are you religious EP?
Are you religious EP?
One of my tenants is an off-the-boat Indian Muslim, he asked me to put a door between the lounge and kitchen so when his friends came to visit they wouldn't be able to see his wife in the kitchen.
Dec 9th 2019, 2:06 pm
#35
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,060
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
The reality is that the UK needs a net-zero immigration policy for at least the next five years in order to allow housing supply & demand to come into balance and to incentivise companies to invest in automation and not cheap labour, enabling wages for the lower orders to strengthen.
During this five year period immigration should primarily be aimed at high and at-need skills (and I don't mean curry chefs), followed by some well-interrogated family reunification (i.e. no arranged marriages) and then a smaller mix of student and refugee/asylum. Skills and family should have a sensible income requirement, likely north of £30Kpa.
At typical current rates of emigration this would permit some 250,000 immigrants per year of skilled, family, student and asylum.
During this five year period immigration should primarily be aimed at high and at-need skills (and I don't mean curry chefs), followed by some well-interrogated family reunification (i.e. no arranged marriages) and then a smaller mix of student and refugee/asylum. Skills and family should have a sensible income requirement, likely north of £30Kpa.
At typical current rates of emigration this would permit some 250,000 immigrants per year of skilled, family, student and asylum.
Dec 9th 2019, 2:12 pm
#36
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,060
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Shard
Fine, if you're a doctor, as I think you said your family had a number of. The caller was talking about his experience in the US, as a coder I think, something private sector, where he was very aware that his work permit was tied to a company, and therefore he was very aware he had to follow company demands or potentially lose his status. He wasn't able to easily switch employers as someone European can do now.
Dec 9th 2019, 2:39 pm
#37
Reasonable Bitch
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 16,785
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
That all sounds very convincing, blueboy. Until you look at the basic premise that there is some kind of immigration "crisis" of some exceptional magnitude, of which there is not (statistically anyway). Your opinion may be that there is a "crisis", but that's subjective.
But you also fail to consider the true source of the "problem"; Post-war England was in dire need of foreign labour, both skilled and unskilled to rebuild its severely damaged infrastructure and economy, and as it did in the war, leveraged what remained of the "Empire" to import that labour from it. And that changed the demographics substantially. It wasn't the EU, nor FOM, although as an EU member, England enjoyed the gift of free access to not only a far larger labour pool as the empire dismantled, but also free unfettered access to a market 7 times its size. And that's precisely how it managed to punch well above the weight of a modest island nation, following the collapse of the empire.
So, as much as you might want to believe that leaving the EU will somehow "solve" this rather imaginary crisis, what you also fail to consider is the consequences of the remedy. And ironically, if England was so fearful of immigrants, it's had plenty of tools available to it, which it never chose to employ.
Yes, Brexit is very likely to happen, but it won't "solve" anything really. Just decades of continued politico-economic chaos while England attempts to figure out who it really is.
But you also fail to consider the true source of the "problem"; Post-war England was in dire need of foreign labour, both skilled and unskilled to rebuild its severely damaged infrastructure and economy, and as it did in the war, leveraged what remained of the "Empire" to import that labour from it. And that changed the demographics substantially. It wasn't the EU, nor FOM, although as an EU member, England enjoyed the gift of free access to not only a far larger labour pool as the empire dismantled, but also free unfettered access to a market 7 times its size. And that's precisely how it managed to punch well above the weight of a modest island nation, following the collapse of the empire.
So, as much as you might want to believe that leaving the EU will somehow "solve" this rather imaginary crisis, what you also fail to consider is the consequences of the remedy. And ironically, if England was so fearful of immigrants, it's had plenty of tools available to it, which it never chose to employ.
Yes, Brexit is very likely to happen, but it won't "solve" anything really. Just decades of continued politico-economic chaos while England attempts to figure out who it really is.
Last edited by amideislas; Dec 9th 2019 at 4:08 pm.
Dec 9th 2019, 2:42 pm
#38
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,114
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Cape Blue
The reality is that the UK needs a net-zero immigration policy for at least the next five years in order to allow housing supply & demand to come into balance and to incentivise companies to invest in automation and not cheap labour, enabling wages for the lower orders to strengthen.
During this five year period immigration should primarily be aimed at high and at-need skills (and I don't mean curry chefs), followed by some well-interrogated family reunification (i.e. no arranged marriages) and then a smaller mix of student and refugee/asylum. Skills and family should have a sensible income requirement, likely north of £30Kpa.
At typical current rates of emigration this would permit some 250,000 immigrants per year of skilled, family, student and asylum.
During this five year period immigration should primarily be aimed at high and at-need skills (and I don't mean curry chefs), followed by some well-interrogated family reunification (i.e. no arranged marriages) and then a smaller mix of student and refugee/asylum. Skills and family should have a sensible income requirement, likely north of £30Kpa.
At typical current rates of emigration this would permit some 250,000 immigrants per year of skilled, family, student and asylum.
Dec 9th 2019, 6:05 pm
#39
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,060
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Bipat
'Foreign' students pay full fees. Universities (and some private schools) would have financial difficulty without them.
Dec 10th 2019, 3:38 am
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 6,113
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by amideislas
There's two different schools of thought here. The realistic view, and the public view.
When they unleashed their anti-foreigner campaign as a means to "democratically" push forward their ideological platform, they hadn't taken into account the necessity for immigration. Nor the unlikelyhood of ever reaching such "targets ".
When that dissonance became apparent, they're now faced with having to backtrack what they've led the electorate to believe, and that's politically dangerous. So now, they have to play it down by avoiding those terms, while making more vague immigration promises that can be deflected later on.
When they unleashed their anti-foreigner campaign as a means to "democratically" push forward their ideological platform, they hadn't taken into account the necessity for immigration. Nor the unlikelyhood of ever reaching such "targets ".
When that dissonance became apparent, they're now faced with having to backtrack what they've led the electorate to believe, and that's politically dangerous. So now, they have to play it down by avoiding those terms, while making more vague immigration promises that can be deflected later on.
Spot on... The immigration issue was a complete red herring ,used to persuade certain people to vote for rather unpleasant characters . It was inflamed by TV coverage of the poor people trapped at Calais.Those refugees fleeing for their lives during the ( American) bombing of their homes. All grist to that handy political mill. EU,immigrants became mixed up with them ,again handily for the Brexiteers. The government really doesn't want to have to discuss immigration .They know it was a fat lie in the first place .Like the ludicrous idea that the ' UK is full'.Its not full, its stagnant. a museum that lives in the past ,and refuses to move forward.Why is that do we think?
Dec 10th 2019, 4:28 am
#41
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 850
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Shard
If we Brexit, in a decade's time there will be many Indian and Chinese immigrants here, simply based on their huge populations and consequent high skill levels. Is that better than Eastern Europeans, debateble. At least neither the Chinese nor Indians are overly religious.
Dec 10th 2019, 4:28 am
#42
WWLLCJD?
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 23,140
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Cape Blue
As it should be - the sole reason he was permitted the luxury of being able to live and work in the US was because of the job required by that company. I was on an H1B visa for several years and had the same experience, doubtless Scamp has a similar situation in Dubai (typically a month to find another employer who will sponsor the H1B if you leave the first sponsor). He knew that when he applied and decided it was acceptable to him.
Originally Posted by Bipat
'Foreign' students pay full fees. Universities (and some private schools) would have financial difficulty without them.
Dec 10th 2019, 4:28 am
#43
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 63,979
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Shard
If we Brexit, in a decade's time there will be many Indian and Chinese immigrants here, simply based on their huge populations and consequent high skill levels. Is that better than Eastern Europeans, debateble. At least neither the Chinese nor Indians are overly religious.
Dec 10th 2019, 4:38 am
#44
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 850
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by Cape Blue
You realise that India is the second largest Muslim country?
One of my tenants is an off-the-boat Indian Muslim, he asked me to put a door between the lounge and kitchen so when his friends came to visit they wouldn't be able to see his wife in the kitchen.
One of my tenants is an off-the-boat Indian Muslim, he asked me to put a door between the lounge and kitchen so when his friends came to visit they wouldn't be able to see his wife in the kitchen.
Dec 10th 2019, 10:21 am
#45
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,060
Re: UK immigration post Brexit
Originally Posted by GeniB
Spot on... The immigration issue was a complete red herring ,used to persuade certain people to vote for rather unpleasant characters . It was inflamed by TV coverage of the poor people trapped at Calais.Those refugees fleeing for their lives during the ( American) bombing of their homes. All grist to that handy political mill. EU,immigrants became mixed up with them ,again handily for the Brexiteers. The government really doesn't want to have to discuss immigration .They know it was a fat lie in the first place .Like the ludicrous idea that the ' UK is full'.Its not full, its stagnant. a museum that lives in the past ,and refuses to move forward.Why is that do we think?
The UK is much more multicultural than most EU countries, it is also more welcoming than most.
People in Calais often aren't refugees coming from Syria etc, they are economic migrants (predominantly young men) from Africa.
It is true that the elites - both political and economic - don't want to reduce persistent high net immigration - they benefit from it and it flatters GDP (but not most other measures).
