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Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:19 am
  #76  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
No it's not. It's perfectly common for people to identify gender as sex. It's a very recent revelation that there are other things that make up an individual's 'gender'.
common but not at all helpful, or useful in discussing these matters. A wish to conflate them, despite knowledge that they are not synonyms strikes me as disingenuous.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:19 am
  #77  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
That Young people learn the bigotry of racism from their elders, doesn't seem a good argument that their elders should strive to impart the bigotry of gender stereotypes on the young.
What about learning compassion and intelligence from their elders, is that an ok argument? What if gender stereotype are beneficial to society and the species or would you prefer we evolve into clones? It's not bigotry to question gender fluidty.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:20 am
  #78  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
putting "bits" aside, why do you feel this need to control how others navigate the world?
Saying people should not choose their gender is saying that people should act, look and behave in certain ways. Why do you feel a need to try to control others in that way?
I'm not controlling or trying to control anything, I think you need to back it up a bit and stop throwing wild accusations. I said I thought it was 'guff'.
I have no interest in controlling people, despite what you're trying to suggest. There's nothing controlling about disagreeing with something.

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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:30 am
  #79  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
common but not at all helpful, or useful in discussing these matters. A wish to conflate them, despite knowledge that they are not synonyms strikes me as disingenuous.
Strike me as disingenuous to dismiss common thought and opinion as not helpful.

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What about learning compassion and intelligence from their elders, is that an ok argument? What if gender stereotype are beneficial to society and the species or would you prefer we evolve into clones? It's not bigotry to question gender fluidty.
It certainly isn't bigotry to question. I mean, to change your gender in the UK you need to go through a lengthy transition period, be diagnosed initially (I think) and committed to it forever. It's a two gender world at the moment, that's for sure.
Your other post about accepting something without 'promoting' it makes a good point too.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:34 am
  #80  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

One of the things that always strikes me when I read a personal story from a transgender person is that they all have felt they're not a boy/girl from a very early age. A few stories here for anyone interested in having a read https://www.theguardian.com/society/...de-to-be-trans


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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:37 am
  #81  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
What about learning compassion and intelligence from their elders, is that an ok argument? What if gender stereotype are beneficial to society and the species or would you prefer we evolve into clones? It's not bigotry to question gender fluidty.
I doubt there is a person alive today whose personality 100% matches with the societal expectations of gender. That gender expectations change is part evidence of this, people live their lives as they want to live them, then shapes societies expectations.
I doubt society is going back to 50s gender roles, despite groups wanting it to. Conservatives have always resisted change, and when that change happens, most ( but not all) accept it and move on to resisting the next wave of change.
I see modern society as having benefited from the great revolution in gender expectations starting with the franchise around the 1920s in the west, and work and sex attitudes in the 1960s. I don't want to reverse any of those gains in gender freedom, what is happening now is a continuation of that movement. I know I have personally gained as a parent as gender expectations of how parenting is viewed, I think how much I probably have missed out on if I had been born a decade earlier. The modern developing attitude to gender is just not prepared to wait for society to catch up, people just want to live and do what suits their personality and not what is expected of them by others.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:41 am
  #82  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Strike me as disingenuous to dismiss common thought and opinion as not helpful.



It certainly isn't bigotry to question. I mean, to change your gender in the UK you need to go through a lengthy transition period, be diagnosed initially (I think) and committed to it forever. It's a two gender world at the moment, that's for sure.
Your other post about accepting something without 'promoting' it makes a good point too.
changing gender requires no transition period and is decided on by an individual, they may consider it over time, but when they make a decision it is immediate.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:55 am
  #83  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
One of the things that always strikes me when I read a personal story from a transgender person is that they all have felt they're not a boy/girl from a very early age. A few stories here for anyone interested in having a read https://www.theguardian.com/society/...de-to-be-trans
Yes you are right, as a medic I have known those that have suffered so very much, and operative treatment is not pleasant to say the least---it is an ordeal.
I have read about medical research on post mortem brains of transgender people and it is thought by some that changes to particular brain areas may happen in utero, so a child is born with an instinct to be a different gender than the obvious physical signs.
The problem is when some who are not really transgender get on to the publicity 'bandwagon'.

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Old Nov 27th 2019, 11:55 am
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

People just are what they are, in terms of what they feel themselves to be and how they want to act in terms of gender and sex. I don't know why some people feel that it's their job to control or limit that. We have societal rules around not hurting others - hence our rules against sexual violence and exploitation of others, many of which are incomplete or poorly enforced but progress is gradually being made - but we also have a sorry history of trying to force people to live as something they do not feel themselves to be, and we have caused a lot of misery over it in multiple ways. And for what? Who gains? Nobody at all. Let people live their lives, and if their secondary sexual characteristics don't match the way they feel in their heads and hearts then let them change. We can contribute by helping to create a society where they don't feel "less than" or ostracized because of it. Where they aren't bullied, made to feel abnormal, are lonely and despairing. People are just people.


https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-r...rans-adolescen

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Nov 27th 2019 at 11:57 am.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 12:11 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
changing gender requires no transition period and is decided on by an individual, they may consider it over time, but when they make a decision it is immediate.
Sorry, I was talking legally.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 1:07 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Something about that doesn't add up
Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
What? Some people more 'prone' than others (obviously everyone doesn't get them!!----not all alcohol drinking or alcoholism leads to cirrhosis!)
Oh come on Bipat. It was a good joke.
arrhythmias / arithmetic

Last edited by BristolUK; Nov 27th 2019 at 1:09 pm.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 1:19 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

I don't care what people want to identify as, as long as they are willing to let me how how they want to be identified, or don't get offended if I make a mistake when I don't know.(which will happen).
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 2:18 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
People just are what they are, in terms of what they feel themselves to be and how they want to act in terms of gender and sex. I don't know why some people feel that it's their job to control or limit that. We have societal rules around not hurting others - hence our rules against sexual violence and exploitation of others, many of which are incomplete or poorly enforced but progress is gradually being made - but we also have a sorry history of trying to force people to live as something they do not feel themselves to be, and we have caused a lot of misery over it in multiple ways. And for what? Who gains? Nobody at all. Let people live their lives, and if their secondary sexual characteristics don't match the way they feel in their heads and hearts then let them change. We can contribute by helping to create a society where they don't feel "less than" or ostracized because of it. Where they aren't bullied, made to feel abnormal, are lonely and despairing. People are just people.


https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-r...rans-adolescen
Absolutely. People are needlessly dying over something that shouldn't even be an issue in the first place.

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I don't care what people want to identify as, as long as they are willing to let me how how they want to be identified, or don't get offended if I make a mistake when I don't know.(which will happen).
Genuine, honest mistakes won't cause offense. It's deliberate misgendering after being informed, or using someone's 'dead name' with full knowledge that they have transitioned/are transitioning that would (rightly, IMO) cause offense.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 2:42 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

A thought on the idea that gender issues shouldn't be "encouraged", while I am not sure it is encouraged rather than acknowledged, I can't help thinking of Thatchers Clause 28 law and the current Russian anti-gay laws. Both of which concern themselves with trying to stop "encouragement" , argued from the stance that gay is harmful to society. There is historicity here, and a mirror of the conservative objection to societal change until it's accepted and a move to the next destroyer of society.
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Old Nov 27th 2019, 2:49 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

The whole concept of a two-gendered world, and that anybody not conforming to that manufactured construct is somehow a pariah, is very much a product of Western culture. Throughout native North American cultures, for exmaple, there has always been the concept of what is now described as "two-spirit" individuals (that's a modern English coinage that covers a wide variety of nuanced words in various native languages), who can be men functioning as women, women functioning as men, or somewhere in between. Two-spirit people were often held in high esteem in native culture, somehow being "above" rather than "below" the status of the traditional gender roles. Wikipedia has a reasonable summary here - similar gender constructs appear in many other cultures, and were common in the West through the Classical period and into the dark ages. Denigrating gender fluidity seems largely to be a(nother) thing that Christianity and Islam, and cultures influenced by those Abrahamic religions, have in common. I don't know what the received wisdom is in Jewish religious culture concerning gender fluidity and two-spirit identity. Can anybody enlighten?

If (especially "socially conservative") people in Western (and Middle Eastern) culture could only stop sticking their noses into other people's personal lives and let the world get on with their social interactions in whatever way they choose to exist, there'd be a lot less bigotry on the one hand, and a lot less anxiety on the other.
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