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Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Old Dec 4th 2019, 6:16 pm
  #316  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I like the species and society angle. What if the best species and society is 100% gender neutral (using artificial reproduction) is that something we should aspire to?
Isn't telling people what they should aspire to a contradiction in terms?

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Old Dec 4th 2019, 6:22 pm
  #317  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
No, not imo. Nor do I think there's any risk of that. People like sex too much.
Well, they've liked it up until now, the future is unwritten.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 6:22 pm
  #318  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Isn't telling people what they should aspire to a contradiction in terms?
In what way?
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 6:27 pm
  #319  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
In what way?
Were you being serious in #311?
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 6:44 pm
  #320  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Were you being serious in #311?
Sure. One of the reasons trans sexuality is now possible is because of medical advances in recent decades. We also see a reduction and mixing in gender roles and attributes compared to our distant past, so who knows what's to come in a century or two.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 7:02 pm
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Sure. One of the reasons trans sexuality is now possible is because of medical advances in recent decades. We also see a reduction and mixing in gender roles and attributes compared to our distant past, so who knows what's to come in a century or two.
For most people, the lifestyle model hasn't changed since the stone age. Heterosexual couples bond, have children together, the male is the primary earner, the female may work but is the primary carer of the children.

We've changed the fact that it has to be that way, but not that this is most people's aspiration.

I think what people want for themselves and what they want for society as a whole are two quite different things, often quite contradictory.

Also, if you start thinking too hard about what human society should look like, you ultimately arrive at the point where you ask whether it actually serves any purpose.

I'm with Lion: "It's on us to use our best judgement to be the best people, species and society that we can in any given moment."
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 7:12 pm
  #322  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Post # 311 ....

Originally Posted by Shard View Post

I like the species and society angle. What if the best species and society is 100% gender neutral (using artificial reproduction) is that something we should aspire to?


Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Were you being serious in #311?
Yes, this poster can't help themselves it seems. Sorry if my approach isn't as "positive" as LIWs but I think it's garbage.

Earlier upthread ....



Originally Posted by Shard View Post

Societal norms, how about male and female gender roles, the traditional masculine and feminine ones. Much of our culture (literary, artistic) is based on that plurality. The trans movement seeks to undermine that plurality and recruit members to their growing vision of humanism. We don't have to but into that vision.

Kids are now being asked to question their gender and feel free to explore other genders. Not something you can do with race (as an individual). Who knows where that leads, a segment of the population that isn't able to reproduce naturally? Do we really want to reduce our humanity further and further or is an Aldous Huxley style Brave New World something to aspire to?
Total. Garbage.


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Old Dec 4th 2019, 7:38 pm
  #323  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
Post # 311 ....

Yes, this poster can't help themselves it seems. Sorry if my approach isn't as "positive" as LIWs but I think it's garbage.

Earlier upthread ....

Total. Garbage.
No worries, you've already established that you have a small mind.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 7:47 pm
  #324  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
No worries, you've already established that you have a small mind.
Yeah. I'm the narrow minded one. Totally.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 7:58 pm
  #325  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
For most people, the lifestyle model hasn't changed since the stone age. Heterosexual couples bond, have children together, the male is the primary earner, the female may work but is the primary carer of the children.

We've changed the fact that it has to be that way, but not that this is most people's aspiration.

I think what people want for themselves and what they want for society as a whole are two quite different things, often quite contradictory.

Also, if you start thinking too hard about what human society should look like, you ultimately arrive at the point where you ask whether it actually serves any purpose.

I'm with Lion: "It's on us to use our best judgement to be the best people, species and society that we can in any given moment."
I don't think it's useful invoke primitive society or even 1950's Western consumerist society when thinking about the future. Roles and aspirations do change. Technology enables that change. You have many women now who genuinely do not aspire to a primary carer role (children or elederly relatives) despite the societal expectation. I also disagree that it serves no purpose "to think too hard about what society should look like" you write off the entire field of sociology with that one. Happy to leave it there if you so desire. I don't want explode Leslie's head with my visions of a dystopian future for the human species.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 8:08 pm
  #326  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I don't think it's useful invoke primitive society or even 1950's Western consumerist society when thinking about the future. Roles and aspirations do change. Technology enables that change. You have many women now who genuinely do not aspire to a primary carer role (children or elederly relatives) despite the societal expectation. I also disagree that it serves no purpose "to think too hard about what society should look like" you write off the entire field of sociology with that one. Happy to leave it there if you so desire. I don't want explode Leslie's head with my visions of a dystopian future for the human species.
No worries, my head has survived much worse than your silliness.

I'm just glad we're back to doing the, "Trans will ruin society". I was getting bored with, "Coke commercials will make your children have gender reassignment surgeries they really never wanted". Let me know when it's time for, "The species will stop propagating because .2% of the population won't have babies."

And, of course, lest we forget, "Queers love recruiting straight people with their huge activist lobby." I just love that one.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 8:20 pm
  #327  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
No worries, my head has survived much worse than your silliness.

I'm just glad we're back to doing the, "Trans will ruin society". I was getting bored with, "Coke commercials will make your children have gender reassignment surgeries they really never wanted". Let me know when it's time for, "The species will stop propagating because .2% of the population won't have babies."

And, of course, lest we forget, "Queers love recruiting straight people with their huge activist lobby." I just love that one.
Nice word twisting.

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Old Dec 4th 2019, 8:37 pm
  #328  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I don't think it's useful invoke primitive society or even 1950's Western consumerist society when thinking about the future. Roles and aspirations do change.
I'm not thinking about the future, I'm describing the present! I'm all for liberalizing society's view of what constitutes an acceptable lifestyle, as I think I've made clear; I'm just pointing out that most people still won't adopt it, and for all the radical changes of recent decades, I don't expect that to change in my lifetime.

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Technology enables that change. You have many women now who genuinely do not aspire to a primary carer role (children or elederly relatives) despite the societal expectation.
And this tolerance of non-traditional lifestyles or gender roles is good. At the same time, the majority still choose not to adopt them. This is the problem with some strands of feminism: the activists want the women to out-men the men, and the women themselves don't want that.

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I also disagree that it serves no purpose "to think too hard about what society should look like"
I was referring there to your utopian vision of a gender-neutral society using artificial reproduction. I do think about such things, but not in the context of dealing with current issues. I'm much too pragmatic.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 8:42 pm
  #329  
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
I'm not thinking about the future, I'm describing the present! I'm all for liberalizing society's view of what constitutes an acceptable lifestyle, as I think I've made clear; I'm just pointing out that most people still won't adopt it, and for all the radical changes of recent decades, I don't expect that to change in my lifetime.

And this tolerance of non-traditional lifestyles or gender roles is good. At the same time, the majority still choose not to adopt them. This is the problem with some strands of feminism: the activists want the women to out-men the men, and the women themselves don't want that.

I was referring there to your utopian vision of a gender-neutral society using artificial reproduction. I do think about such things, but not in the context of dealing with current issues. I'm much too pragmatic.
Good comments.
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Old Dec 4th 2019, 9:39 pm
  #330  
 
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Default Re: Transgenderism - a sign of the times

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
And this tolerance of non-traditional lifestyles or gender roles is good. At the same time, the majority still choose not to adopt them. This is the problem with some strands of feminism: the activists want the women to out-men the men, and the women themselves don't want that.
Wait, what? What is "out-manning a man" exactly? And which "activists"? Who is classified as an activist? Which women in which society "don't want that"? The issue is far too complicated to be described in these terms. Even the term "traditional" needs a lot more examination. Traditional where, when and how?
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