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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Apr 7th 2021, 7:54 pm
  #11686  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
The largest export of vaccines from the EU was to the UK. The UK exported nothing. It was all reserved for the UK.
And Ursula von der Leyen is the president of the EU Commission. That's also an irrefutable fact.
But that's irrelevant to you. We know.
What you've written here is really a lazy and muddled use of english and whether done on purpose or otherwise is open to misinterpretation.

"The largest export of vaccines from the EU". This phrase can be interpreted to mean:
1. From within the EU
2. By the EU

If you mean (1) then it's clear that the vaccines originated from an entity taking responsibility for vaccine ownership located within an area known as the EU and dispatched it from this area.

If you mean (2) then it's clear that 'the EU' is meant to convey the meaning that an entity entitled 'the EU' dispatched the vaccine and this transfers responsibility for ownership and supplying the vaccine to this entity.

You will note the difference in meaning between the two. Which do you mean?
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 7:58 pm
  #11687  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

As written. Challenge it or divert from it all you like, but it's an irrefutable fact. I can understand why some would be really uncomfortable with it, considering the perception that anything EU can only be inferior. But reality isn't always pleasant. And contrary to what manch asserted, it's not even remotely a"lie", regardless of how you aspire to spin it.

Last edited by amideislas; Apr 7th 2021 at 8:05 pm.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 8:03 pm
  #11688  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
As written. Challenge it all you like, but it's an irrefutable fact. I can understand why some wouldn't like to hear that. But reality isn't always pleasant.
That's not really a good enough answer though is it?
If you splash a woolly phrase into the ether then you can't really expect to be taken seriously when you refuse to elaborate precisely what you mean by it.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 8:06 pm
  #11689  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

It's not a lie. Both are irrefutable facts. Manch believes otherwise. That's his right, even if rather embarrassing for him. But that's not my problem. It's his.

Last edited by amideislas; Apr 7th 2021 at 8:09 pm.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 8:09 pm
  #11690  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
It's not a lie. It's a fact. Manch believes otherwise. That's his right, even if rather embarrassing for him. But that's not my problem
I make no judgement, I merely ask you to explain what you mean when you write "The largest export of vaccines from the EU was to the UK."
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 8:37 pm
  #11691  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

It means the largest export of vaccines from the EU was to the UK.. Nothing more. And it's an irrefutable fact. Why can't you lot understand this? Or don't want to. It's not complicated.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 8:55 pm
  #11692  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
It means the largest export of vaccines from the EU was to the UK.. Nothing more. And it's an irrefutable fact. Why can't you lot understand this? Or don't want to. It's not complicated.
In that case I'll be forced to interpret the phrase for you.
You state that your phrase represents fact.
The only interpretation that is fact is the interpretation I offered as option (1).
"the vaccines originated from an entity taking responsibility for vaccine ownership located within an area known as the EU and dispatched it from this area."
As an independant business, Astrazeneca's actions were dictated by contractual obligations only.
Any representation or threat from the EU Commission to behave differently would have been rightly ignored by Astrazeneca.
The UK government would not have been party to Astrazeneca decisions other than to remind Astrazeneca of their contractual obligations with respect to UK supply.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 9:11 pm
  #11693  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Well, yes, you're correct in that the UK deliberately attempted to ring fence supply for domestic political gain, by adding the unique clause in the AstraZeneca contact that the UK must be supplied first, but that's all history now, and the EU is actually beginning to receive more supply from other vendors, so it's not as contentious as it was initially, just totally unnecessary, cheeky and stupid of the UK. And that hasn't gone unnoticed outside of the bubble.

​​​​But it's still an irrefutable fact the most exports of vaccines from the EU have so far been delivered to the UK. Spin that any way you wish, but it's still an irrefutable fact. Manch denies that part and calls it a "lie". Are you going to as well?

Last edited by amideislas; Apr 7th 2021 at 9:18 pm.
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 10:04 pm
  #11694  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

So far I've got 37 irrefutables and 28 bubbles . Pretty good going, I take my hat off to you
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Old Apr 7th 2021, 10:56 pm
  #11695  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
So far I've got 37 irrefutables and 28 bubbles . Pretty good going, I take my hat off to you
Google search - Vaccine Nationalism UK

About 4,940,000 results.
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Old Apr 8th 2021, 4:21 am
  #11696  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
So far I've got 37 irrefutables and 28 bubbles . Pretty good going, I take my hat off to you
​​​​​​I never used any of those words. It's a lie​​​.
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Old Apr 8th 2021, 5:03 am
  #11697  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Well, yes, you're correct in that the UK deliberately attempted to ring fence supply for domestic political gain, by adding the unique clause in the AstraZeneca contact that the UK must be supplied first, but that's all history now, and the EU is actually beginning to receive more supply from other vendors, so it's not as contentious as it was initially, just totally unnecessary, cheeky and stupid of the UK. And that hasn't gone unnoticed outside of the bubble.
​​​​But it's still an irrefutable fact the most exports of vaccines from the EU have so far been delivered to the UK. Spin that any way you wish, but it's still an irrefutable fact. Manch denies that part and calls it a "lie". Are you going to as well?
I happen to think that reserving vaccine for yourself at a time when you realise that every man and his dog will be after the stuff, as was the case with PPE, demonstrates an approach that understands some of the problems associated with fighting this virus.
You state that this was done for purely political reasons and of course, as the EU Commission is discovering, there is a substantial political price to pay for getting it wrong.
It's to Johnson's government's credit that this fundamental property of this particular decision appears to have been understood.
Whether to save lives or political status are two sides of the same coin in this instance.
Fail in one and you fail in the other and vice versa.
For this reason the first call must be to save lives and political benefits will follow automatically, it cannot be done the other way around.
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Old Apr 8th 2021, 6:02 am
  #11698  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

The EU has a contract as well. It's not being fulfilled. Only the UK's contract is being fulfilled. Because the UK wrote it in the contract. But that's behind us, as the EU is now receiving fulfillment from other suppliers, and may well eclipse the UK in terms of vaccinations in the coming months.

Still, that ringfencing didn't guarantee supply to the UK, it guarantees that nobody else gets any. It has no purpose other than politics.

When viewed from outside the UK, it was all rather transparent. It's been widely written about. Even a new, (arguably derogatory) term was coined and now widely used in reference to the UK, specifically in light of the UK's wholly unnecessary and petty attempt to keep supply all to itself.

And while that act indeed achieved a temporary sense of domestic political victory in a homemade phony war with the EU, at a time when the ruling party desperately needed political cover for it's failures in the pandemic and Brexit, the view from outside the insularity of British politics is that it again, further testifies to the depths the ruling government is willing to stoop, amongst many other examples in the past 5 years. And ignorantly, just when the ruling party is going to need credibility as it naively goes round the planet begging for "goodwill", in its "Global Britain" domestic political campaign, designed to reassure the British public that they're still a global power and rule the seas, as they have for centuries (the imaginary glorious past).

But that facade can only withstand a finite amount of reality. Trumpish behaviour isn't exactly welcomed in a global scope, and isn't helping the UK's waning credibility. "Global Britain" is anything but "global". With this latest political facade, it appears even more insular than ever.

Last edited by amideislas; Apr 8th 2021 at 6:24 am.
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Old Apr 8th 2021, 6:36 am
  #11699  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
https://www.livescience.com/24310-fl...th-belief.html
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Old Apr 8th 2021, 6:50 am
  #11700  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
With labour left and right fighting each other, labour doesn't stand a chance.
No one knows what the labour position is on anything anymore.
Amen to that.


Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
President von der Leyen.

Also almost any dictionary you care to consult on the difference between the meaning of the words "notably" and "exclusively".
Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Okaaaay! We're back to the dictionary again, are we? In my world I see notably as the main character. Not exclusively, but the main one. By leaving the wording so vague it could, therefore, mean anything, anything at all that member states may perceive to be of danger to it. But there is no confusion with the way 'financial assistance' is worded, is there? Blocking vaccine isn't financial assistance, but who cares? It just confirms when I say they can change the meaning of almost anything in their treaties to mean what they want it to mean at the time. And you all just have to accept it. Remember the raid on Cypriot banks? I know it was not Article 122, far from it, but you just have to accept it. Next time it might be a step closer to home. Thank God we're out of it.
Scampstradamus strikes again.

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post


Dave, just let me crack terrible jokes and laugh at them or join in. This thread needs a little lift or it's going to spiral into a battle of semantics over what a council or government is or worse, we'll be talking about India.
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