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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Nov 21st 2020, 6:11 pm
  #10456  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
Exactly. I have worked as a manager in the Civil Service and if staff are underperforming or you believe them to be guilty of wrongdoing, there are procedures which should be followed. As a first step the person concerned should be spoken to IN PRIVATE and the manager should never, ever shout and swear at them, or insult them by calling them names or belittling them in front of other colleagues - all of which Patel is alleged to have done. If she has done this she is the one who has not done her job effectively as she is a very poor manager. She should have had the patience and the intelligence to bide her time, go through all the necessary stages of the procedure, collect and document the evidence properly and present it effectively. It may take time but if this is done it is possible to bring successful disciplinary proceedings against civil servants - I know, I have done it and had the Employment Tribunal Chairman compliment me on the quality of my evidence and call me a very credible witness.

Have you ever watched "Yes Minister"? Yes a comedy but based on reality!

The swearing---I wonder what words she actually used?
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 6:29 pm
  #10457  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
...The question on this thread topic is who actually is doing the bullying!
No, that's a Bipat invention.

The inquiry has cleared up the matter of whether the minister bullied. Nobody else so far stands accused of bullying behaviour.

Perhaps you could put it in the suggestion box, though, that Patel or the PM make a counter-claim against the Civil Service.

Last edited by Red Eric; Nov 21st 2020 at 6:32 pm.
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 7:03 pm
  #10458  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

There's an expression that's often banded about "A week's a long time in politics".
Anyone who's followed my posts will know that I have little or no time for politicians, I think they're a load of... well I'll not go there, but there are times when things need to be done, and quickly.
This discussion concerning how to rid oneself of an obdurate civil servant confirms my fear that civil servants don't live in the real world. Time is very often of the essence and to be faced with a lack of action hiding behind an uncooperative or incompetent management is often at odds with the need to get a move on. Waiting while the wheels of officialdom crank into motion sometimes isn't an option.
There's a real harsh world out there where if someone doesn't pull his weight then you'll find someone who will.

Whilst looking into this dismissal business I've come across something called the "Four Year Rule" https://civilservant.org.uk/information-dismissal.html, designed to weed out poor performing senior managers at the end of a four year posting.
I quote:
"The clear aim was to force the weaker performers either to resign or to find new jobs - which would be difficult if their reputation preceded them, as it usually would. This new approach was to be coupled with "better performance management" of "the 20% of people who are contributing least to their Department's objectives". The result was indeed more frequent early retirements of those whose careers had 'plateaud'.
It is reasonable to ask, of course, why poor performers could not simply be dismissed. The answer is that it can be difficult and time-consuming to performance-manage to dismissal senior staff whose objectives are often inevitably somewhat vague, and who can often say, with some force, that outside factors got in their way."

What a system. Where else in the real world can you afford to put up with working alongside someone for four years before nicely asking them if they'd care to retire?
The next time you visit your GP and you wonder if he's up to the job, feel safe in the knowledge that he'll be gone in four years.

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Old Nov 21st 2020, 7:39 pm
  #10459  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
There's an expression that's often banded about "A week's a long time in politics".
Anyone who's followed my posts will know that I have little or no time for politicians, I think they're a load of... well I'll not go there, but there are times when things need to be done, and quickly.
This discussion concerning how to rid oneself of an obdurate civil servant confirms my fear that civil servants don't live in the real world. Time is very often of the essence and to be faced with a lack of action hiding behind an uncooperative or incompetent management is often at odds with the need to get a move on. Waiting while the wheels of officialdom crank into motion sometimes isn't an option.
There's a real harsh world out there where if someone doesn't pull his weight then you'll find someone who will.

Whilst looking into this dismissal business I've come across something called the "Four Year Rule" https://civilservant.org.uk/information-dismissal.html, designed to weed out poor performing senior managers at the end of a four year posting.
I quote:
"The clear aim was to force the weaker performers either to resign or to find new jobs - which would be difficult if their reputation preceded them, as it usually would. This new approach was to be coupled with "better performance management" of "the 20% of people who are contributing least to their Department's objectives". The result was indeed more frequent early retirements of those whose careers had 'plateaud'.
It is reasonable to ask, of course, why poor performers could not simply be dismissed. The answer is that it can be difficult and time-consuming to performance-manage to dismissal senior staff whose objectives are often inevitably somewhat vague, and who can often say, with some force, that outside factors got in their way."

What a system. Where else in the real world can you afford to put up with working alongside someone for four years before nicely asking them if they'd care to retire?

The next time you visit your GP and you wonder if he's up to the job, feel safe in the knowledge that he'll be gone in four years.
Just a correction ----a GP is not a civil servant---they are self employed ---but under NHS rules. (The GMC deals with any problems.)
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 7:51 pm
  #10460  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Bit shocking to see such staunch advocates of workplace bullying still exist in the good citizenry of 21st century UK.

Especially those who have intimate professional acquaintance with the law and medicine.
Especially those who claim not to support the person they're supporting.
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 7:59 pm
  #10461  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Just a correction ----a GP is not a civil servant---they are self employed ---but under NHS rules. (The GMC deals with any problems.)
I know, I was asking the question whether, when faced with an incompetent GP, you'd be perfectly happy to continue consulting the GP for many years, or whether you'd decide that his/her services weren't in your best interest.
Incidentally, I've been in this position and immediately asked for a second opinion. The GP was not happy and became quite obnoxious, did his attitude amount to bullying I wonder, it certainly made me feel uncomfortable.
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 8:46 pm
  #10462  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Especially those who claim not to support the person they're supporting.
We need another one of those diagrams like what Lion posted, to explain it all.
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Old Nov 21st 2020, 11:29 pm
  #10463  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

I just watched the last two episodes of Spitting Image.

Utter codswallop.
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 5:59 am
  #10464  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
Exactly. I have worked as a manager in the Civil Service and if staff are underperforming or you believe them to be guilty of wrongdoing, there are procedures which should be followed. As a first step the person concerned should be spoken to IN PRIVATE and the manager should never, ever shout and swear at them, or insult them by calling them names or belittling them in front of other colleagues - all of which Patel is alleged to have done. If she has done this she is the one who has not done her job effectively as she is a very poor manager. She should have had the patience and the intelligence to bide her time, go through all the necessary stages of the procedure, collect and document the evidence properly and present it effectively. It may take time but if this is done it is possible to bring successful disciplinary proceedings against civil servants - I know, I have done it and had the Employment Tribunal Chairman compliment me on the quality of my evidence and call me a very credible witness.
Weird, I thought if you were underperforming in the civil service it meant a promotion.
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 9:24 am
  #10465  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
There's an expression that's often banded about "A week's a long time in politics".
Anyone who's followed my posts will know that I have little or no time for politicians, I think they're a load of... well I'll not go there, but there are times when things need to be done, and quickly.
This discussion concerning how to rid oneself of an obdurate civil servant confirms my fear that civil servants don't live in the real world. Time is very often of the essence and to be faced with a lack of action hiding behind an uncooperative or incompetent management is often at odds with the need to get a move on. Waiting while the wheels of officialdom crank into motion sometimes isn't an option.
There's a real harsh world out there where if someone doesn't pull his weight then you'll find someone who will.

Whilst looking into this dismissal business I've come across something called the "Four Year Rule" https://civilservant.org.uk/information-dismissal.html, designed to weed out poor performing senior managers at the end of a four year posting.
I quote:
"The clear aim was to force the weaker performers either to resign or to find new jobs - which would be difficult if their reputation preceded them, as it usually would. This new approach was to be coupled with "better performance management" of "the 20% of people who are contributing least to their Department's objectives". The result was indeed more frequent early retirements of those whose careers had 'plateaud'.
It is reasonable to ask, of course, why poor performers could not simply be dismissed. The answer is that it can be difficult and time-consuming to performance-manage to dismissal senior staff whose objectives are often inevitably somewhat vague, and who can often say, with some force, that outside factors got in their way."

What a system. Where else in the real world can you afford to put up with working alongside someone for four years before nicely asking them if they'd care to retire?
The next time you visit your GP and you wonder if he's up to the job, feel safe in the knowledge that he'll be gone in four years.
Even politicians are supposed to be subject to the law of the land (although with this Government in particular, it increasingly doesn't seem to be that way), just like the rest of us. There is such a thing as employment law, and instant dismissal is permitted but only for gross misconduct (violence, theft, having pornography found on a work computer, that kind of thing). I have known it happen, but only in rare cases. Of course Priti Patel and her Britannia Unchained collaborators don't believe in employment rights and would like to scrap them , so it must be terribly frustrating for her to be expected to operate within those parameters, and she has let her temper get the better of her.

Please don't present this in the light of her only being accused of bullying senior civil servants. I referred earlier to similar occurrences in other Government Departments where Patel has worked - like this case where a woman described as a junior civil servant at the DWP received a 25k payout after making a complaint of bullying against her in 2015.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51705069

Last edited by Lynn R; Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:32 am.
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 9:31 am
  #10466  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

It has never failed to surprise me when a boss yells and swears at an employee who has let them down or caused a balls up, and they get all uppity. the trash talk starts,I wonder how hard she has had to work to get where she is and long hours she's worked like a lot of women have to and when they speak their minds some pansy accuses them of bullying,Maybe in the school yard yeah, but at work! most of have been told to get your finger out or you are out lets get real please!!! Or have i worked a harsh unrealistic life in construction???
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 9:53 am
  #10467  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by el collado kid View Post
It has never failed to surprise me when a boss yells and swears at an employee who has let them down or caused a balls up, and they get all uppity. the trash talk starts,I wonder how hard she has had to work to get where she is and long hours she's worked like a lot of women have to and when they speak their minds some pansy accuses them of bullying,Maybe in the school yard yeah, but at work! most of have been told to get your finger out or you are out lets get real please!!! Or have i worked a harsh unrealistic life in construction???
Construction is very different. All my working career has been in recruiting within construction, both agency and in-house.
It's a different animal completely, constructions as a whole is still full of white, middle-aged dinosaurs. Forget the basic builder / trades side of it and even on the professional / more senior side of major projects and the stories are unreal.

I've been in some savage meetings about people, I've been savaged by people and you just shut up and get on with it. You can fight back but it's often fire with fire because you get smart and you get slapped down harder. Hold your own and you'll often come out of it relatively well. It's just shit management ultimately, exists in every industry it's just construction seems to have a high portion of shouters....especially in this part of the world.

It is what it is. It's not ideal but it's a reality of a stressful / high pressure working environment. The old expression of not being able to stand the heat is still really true. I don't imagine there are many people in high stress / powerful roles who haven't dished out or received a kicking.
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 10:05 am
  #10468  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
Even politicians are supposed to be subject to the law of the land (although with this Government in particular, it increasingly doesn't seem to be that way), just like the rest of us. There is such a thing as employment law, and instant dismissal is permitted but only for gross misconduct (violence, theft, having pornography found on a work computer, that kind of thing). I have known it happen, but only in rare cases. Of course Priti Patel and her Britannia Unchained collaborators don't believe in employment rights and would like to scrap them , so it must be terribly frustrating for her to be expected to operate within those parameters, and she has let her temper get the better of her.

Please don't present this in the light of her only being accused of bullying senior civil servants. I referred earlier to similar occurrences in other Government Departments where Patel has worked - like this case where a woman described as a junior civil servant at the DWP received a 25k payout after making a complaint of bullying against her in 2015.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51705069

Read this --- this AM. The point is being responsible for the security of the country is not an average 9 to 5 job.

Priti Patel shakes up antiquated work practices at Home Office (msn.com)

(Some one above mentioned GPs ----on holiday --on a flight--- "Is there a doctor on board"--- is called out, "sorry not on duty"-- "not my job"----is not the response!)

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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 10:22 am
  #10469  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Read this --- this AM. The point is being responsible for the security of the country is not an average 9 to 5 job.

Priti Patel shakes up antiquated work practices at Home Office (msn.com)

(Some one above mentioned GPs ----on holiday --on a flight--- "Is there a doctor on board"--- is called out, "sorry not on duty"-- "not my job"----is not the response!)
I bet those more junior Home Office staff who face the prospect of being interrogated directly by her as a result of these changes are really relishing the prospect in the light of how she will treat them.

National security? What was her excuse at the Treasury, Department for Work and Pensions and Department for International Development for treating staff there in a way which caused numerous complaints to be made about her conduct?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ials-face.html

Apparently the "being obstructive" claims relate to Patel trying to instruct civil servants to breach an order from the Court of Appeal regarding the deportation of failed asylum seekers. If she orders them to break the law to suit her own political agenda they are quite right to tell her it cannot be done. If it was done, and subsequently discovered, do you think she would take the rap for it?

Last edited by Lynn R; Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:32 am.
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Old Nov 22nd 2020, 11:12 am
  #10470  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
I bet those more junior Home Office staff who face the prospect of being interrogated directly by her as a result of these changes are really relishing the prospect in the light of how she will treat them.

National security? What was her excuse at the Treasury, Department for Work and Pensions and Department for International Development for treating staff there in a way which caused numerous complaints to be made about her conduct?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ials-face.html

Apparently the "being obstructive" claims relate to Patel trying to instruct civil servants to breach an order from the Court of Appeal regarding the deportation of failed asylum seekers. If she orders them to break the law to suit her own political agenda they are quite right to tell her it cannot be done. If it was done, and subsequently discovered, do you think she would take the rap for it?
I agree she should have waited until final ruling regarding 'failed' asylum seekers, I agree that she is probably 'brusque' (after all she is middle class and Indian origin (although not 'black' as another poster described her). Any one who has witnessed many such ladies in' full flow' knows their abilities!)

However the obstruction of Ministers at the Home Office has been remarked on for some time.I was more concerned when Amber Rudd resigned when she did not receive information that should have been passed to her. Theresa May was praised for her 'staying' ability---why should this be?

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