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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Jun 28th 2020, 11:13 pm
  #9121  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
The UK can do whatever the hell it wants it is no longer my problem only if I ever decided to go back. As you quite correctly pointed out BREXIT has happened so why isn't that thread closed as there is nothing left to discuss yet apparently they are still negotiating. Im confused I thought BREXIT was done so why negotiations ongoing
As I said earlier, the negotiations decide our future trade relationship with the EU from 11pm on 31st Dec 2021. Failure to make any trade deal means trading under WTO rules.

No deal removes things like Galileo, Open Skies, the Schengen Information System, and others from the UK's reach, and makes it more difficult for EU countries (and Northern Ireland due to the agreement made regarding NI's Customs Union with the EU) to trade with the UK (and vice-versa) from Jan 2021.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 11:51 pm
  #9122  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
As I said earlier, the negotiations decide our future trade relationship with the EU from 11pm on 31st Dec 2021. Failure to make any trade deal means trading under WTO rules.

No deal removes things like Galileo, Open Skies, the Schengen Information System, and others from the UK's reach, and makes it more difficult for EU countries (and Northern Ireland due to the agreement made regarding NI's Customs Union with the EU) to trade with the UK (and vice-versa) from Jan 2021.
Nothing wrong with WTO rules. There again better having well thought out trade deals like your cheese can enter freely if ours can enter yours with no quotas etc etc. Wanna slap tariffs on our goods OK we do the same to you. My adopted country doesn't need to be part of a Union as such but is a member of APEC, NAFTA and others and we seem to do OK but like every country we do impose quotas etc to protect our own interests and agricultural sectors. The UK has a population of nearly twice the size of Canada so cant you choose leaders who know what they are doing or are you becoming like the USA? There again we are similar in that we keep swapping between 2 parties and expecting different results every couple of elections and still ending up with problems. Look who lives downstairs from us and who we share our border with but we do the best we can with what we have got.
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Old Jun 29th 2020, 3:22 pm
  #9123  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
Starmer is basically Red Tory, he is so close to Blair and his ideals, and has kow towed to the BoD, meaning that ANY criticism of Israel and the atrocities they are performing is classed as anti-semitism, it's nothing of the sort, Israeli police and defence forces are killing Palestinian civilians dainly, often children.
Ok, thank you. I agree with your post, apart from - maybe, the truth will out - his proximity to Blair and his ideals.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 10:22 am
  #9124  
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 10:32 am
  #9125  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
Starmer is basically Red Tory, he is so close to Blair and his ideals, and has kow towed to the BoD, meaning that ANY criticism of Israel and the atrocities they are performing is classed as anti-semitism, it's nothing of the sort, Israeli police and defence forces are killing Palestinian civilians dainly, often children.
Given the perception of anti-Semitism in Labour, perhaps a bit of overkill on anything which could be faintly construed as anti-Semitic is what's required.




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Old Jun 30th 2020, 11:55 am
  #9126  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Given the perception of anti-Semitism in Labour, perhaps a bit of overkill on anything which could be faintly construed as anti-Semitic is what's required.
Or learning and understanding the difference between legitimate anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of bad Israeli actions, which is not the same thing, even though the JBoD have got Starmer and co to agree they are.

JBoD are a Tory-supporting organisation, yet haven't required BoJo and co to agree to the 10 pledges. Nor any other party.

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Old Jun 30th 2020, 12:29 pm
  #9127  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Given the perception of anti-Semitism in Labour, perhaps a bit of overkill on anything which could be faintly construed as anti-Semitic is what's required.
I agree..... whilst I'm uncomfortable with any check on criticism of the actions of the Israeli government, I am equally uncomfortable with those who would wish to turn back the clock and "disappear" Israel as an entity, or deny its right to exist. Targeted criticism of zionist expansion or persecution of Palestinians by the Israeli state is as valid as criticism of any other oppression, but at the same time I accept that using the term "Israel" or "Israeli" to describe such actions could be seen as suggesting that it is the action of all Israelis... and by extension, all jews.

However, I think this is a nuanced and slightly extreme interpretation, pushed by those who wish to suppress any such criticism. Such usage is normally less "abrasive" in other contexts - but not always. If I talk about the actions of the British in Ireland, I am not suggesting that those actions are representative of everybody in the UK (or even in England), but of those in charge of Britain at that time, i.e. the government - but there are those of this parish who have called out any such criticism as "anti-British"...... so likewise, criticism of Israel could be interpreted as anti-Jewish. The difference is that calls of "anti-semitism" play on holocaust guilt to make Jews a special case, rather than another target of generalized criticism - and it is this call as a "special case" that Gerald Kaufman rejected... and for which he was called a "self-hating Jew" by the BoD.

However, the Labour Party is in a hole .... and escaping from it proved impossible by Corbyn - so something has to be done. The description of anyone as "Red Tory" is as unhelpful as calling out the previous affiliations of many on the left of the party .... just as divisive and just as destructive of any chance of power. Those who claim to support the Labour movement, but take this approach, need to consider what they actually want .... the SWP never won an election and internal division only gives comfort to the Tories.
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Old Jun 30th 2020, 11:54 pm
  #9128  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I agree..... whilst I'm uncomfortable with any check on criticism of the actions of the Israeli government, I am equally uncomfortable with those who would wish to turn back the clock and "disappear" Israel as an entity, or deny its right to exist. Targeted criticism of zionist expansion or persecution of Palestinians by the Israeli state is as valid as criticism of any other oppression, but at the same time I accept that using the term "Israel" or "Israeli" to describe such actions could be seen as suggesting that it is the action of all Israelis... and by extension, all jews.
However, I think this is a nuanced and slightly extreme interpretation, pushed by those who wish to suppress any such criticism. Such usage is normally less "abrasive" in other contexts - but not always. If I talk about the actions of the British in Ireland, I am not suggesting that those actions are representative of everybody in the UK (or even in England), but of those in charge of Britain at that time, i.e. the government - but there are those of this parish who have called out any such criticism as "anti-British"...... so likewise, criticism of Israel could be interpreted as anti-Jewish. The difference is that calls of "anti-semitism" play on holocaust guilt to make Jews a special case, rather than another target of generalized criticism - and it is this call as a "special case" that Gerald Kaufman rejected... and for which he was called a "self-hating Jew" by the BoD.
However, the Labour Party is in a hole .... and escaping from it proved impossible by Corbyn - so something has to be done. The description of anyone as "Red Tory" is as unhelpful as calling out the previous affiliations of many on the left of the party .... just as divisive and just as destructive of any chance of power. Those who claim to support the Labour movement, but take this approach, need to consider what they actually want .... the SWP never won an election and internal division only gives comfort to the Tories.
Nicely put.
Israel, by it's own definition is a jewish state and it acts to benefit, serve and promote the interests of people of the jewish persuasion, and I have to say, from only what I see on the media having little or no contact with anyone with personal interets in the subject, that it has reulted in a state whose behaviour is racist in the extreme.
Norwithstanding threats from some arab states, Israel's treatment of the palestinians is and has been apalling and unforgivable. They are reported to use what overwhelming force and the law to ensure compliance with right wing and settler wishes and they condemn any response from the palestinians with unretrained brutality.
Little wonder then that Israel is sensitive to criticism and it serves nobody's interests but Israel's to equate anti-semitism to anti-Israel.

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Old Jul 1st 2020, 11:51 am
  #9129  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

I see Boris says the UK will now "build build build".

I wonder where all the money's coming from? Do they have a meth or ecstasy business on the side that nobody knows about?
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Old Jul 1st 2020, 12:07 pm
  #9130  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I see Boris says the UK will now "build build build".

I wonder where all the money's coming from? Do they have a meth or ecstasy business on the side that nobody knows about?
Yeah, you and me both. We've gone from being a country with a government focused on austerity and fixing the debt holes of previous administrations to one that's currently behaving like Elton John on a birthday trip to Harrod's.
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Old Jul 1st 2020, 12:21 pm
  #9131  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
I see Boris says the UK will now "build build build".

I wonder where all the money's coming from? Do they have a meth or ecstasy business on the side that nobody knows about?
That money tree is still blossoming.
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Old Jul 1st 2020, 12:25 pm
  #9132  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
That money tree is still blossoming.
The money tree that May said didn't exist. Johnson and must have found a magic seed somewhere.
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Old Jul 1st 2020, 1:40 pm
  #9133  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

This might help 'splainit.

UK debt now bigger than size of whole economy

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Old Jul 1st 2020, 1:43 pm
  #9134  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The money tree that May said didn't exist. Johnson and must have found a magic seed somewhere.
Magic seed was crushed, cut up with some questionable substances and snorted long, long ago.
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Old Jul 1st 2020, 1:51 pm
  #9135  
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Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Magic seed was crushed, cut up with some questionable substances and snorted long, long ago.
Now that the UK has been "liberated" from "laws" and "rules", I reckon they could sell that along with meth and ecstasy for a good price on eBay.
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