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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Jun 16th 2019, 3:43 pm
  #2281  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I'm going to copy and paste some more of that incisive column just to encourage people to read it.

"But Labour’s fence-sitting on Brexit is ultimately a sideshow. The Conservative Party has been in power for nearly a decade, and the buck—or the ever-shaky pound—ultimately stops with them for the ongoing Brexit fiasco.

And the race within the Conservative Party to succeed May could yet radicalize public discourse further when it comes to Brexit. The Tory leadership contenders—of which there are currently seven—are engaged in a rhetorical arms race in the hope of persuading grassroots members of the Conservative Party (who are considerably older and more right-wing than the country at large) to vote for them. The rise of the newly constituted Brexit Party is playing a role similar to that of UKIP previously, encouraging Tory politicians to play to the hard right.

So far, the Tory leadership contenders have threatened to shut down Parliament, offered tax cuts for the well-off, and proposed to give parents a veto over LGBT lessons in schools.

Rory Stewart, the secretary of state for international development, is the only candidate who could arguably be said to represent more mainstream conservative ideas. Stewart is offering the Conservative Party a platform that is—in his own words—“practical and possible.” Yet Stewart stands little chance among a Tory “selectorate” that wishes to drive through Brexit at almost any cost (as well as bring back hanging and fox hunting).

Britain’s two major political parties have been captured by activists and ideologues whose obsessions now dominate the Westminster news cycle. Tory thinking is being driven by Brexit hard-liners, whereas Labour is now firmly in the control of a political faction that believes the EU is a neoliberal plot. Perhaps it’s no wonder that the two parties have, in some polls, fallen to third and fourth place—behind the even more lunatic Brexit Party and the perennially ineffective Liberal Democrats.

Blame for this sorry state of affairs can be laid at the door of the two previous party leaders. Cameron looked at the festering sore of Euroskepticism within the Conservative Party and decided to pick at it. Meanwhile, in a bid to look tough against the trade unions, former Labour leader Ed Miliband opened the Labour Party up to every crank, extremist, and oddball with 3 pounds to spare.

This short-sightedness—each man hoped to quell internal dissent—has transformed their respective parties. But it has proven catastrophic for Britain, whose political destiny is now held hostage by the demands of opposing sets of political extremists."
Regarding the praise of Rory Stewart-----Highly intelligent, speaks well, good knowledge of foreign affairs -------ideal PM ----I thought!!
Then I looked at his voting record!!!
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 3:49 pm
  #2282  
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Regarding the praise of Rory Stewart-----Highly intelligent, speaks well, good knowledge of foreign affairs -------ideal PM ----I thought!!
Then I looked at his voting record!!!
He also has some lunatic idea about selecting a panel from the public by lottery to advise the government on policy.
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 5:57 pm
  #2283  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
He also has some lunatic idea about selecting a panel from the public by lottery to advise the government on policy.
The thing to remember here, is that it's almost certain that none of this remaining gang will be around in the UK in five years.
Afaict, every one of them has either foreign interests, or money stashed outside, or swappable foreign careers (Hey! -it's FOM !!!). No use looking for any of them then.
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 6:00 pm
  #2284  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Regarding the praise of Rory Stewart-----Highly intelligent, speaks well, good knowledge of foreign affairs -------ideal PM ----I thought!!
Then I looked at his voting record!!!
Which is ?
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 6:01 pm
  #2285  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
The thing to remember here, is that it's almost certain that none of this remaining gang will be around in the UK in five years.
Afaict, every one of them has either foreign interests, or money stashed outside, or swappable foreign careers (Hey! -it's FOM !!!). No use looking for any of them then.
Miliband?
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 7:03 pm
  #2286  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
He also has some lunatic idea about selecting a panel from the public by lottery to advise the government on policy.
Lunatic? It seems to have worked very well in formulating recent changes in Ireland........

However, the idea of bolting another piece onto the crippled body of British democracy probably wouldn't be any more positive than calling referendums.
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 7:51 pm
  #2287  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Which is ?

Use a 'search engine', type in 'Rory Stewart , voting record', ---- 2 or 3 pages of how he has voted in Parliament!!!
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 8:13 pm
  #2288  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Use a 'search engine', type in 'Rory Stewart , voting record', ---- 2 or 3 pages of how he has voted in Parliament!!!
AS a Tory how else would you expect him to vote.
How many were whips, party instructions...



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Old Jun 16th 2019, 8:13 pm
  #2289  
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Lunatic? It seems to have worked very well in formulating recent changes in Ireland........

However, the idea of bolting another piece onto the crippled body of British democracy probably wouldn't be any more positive than calling referendums.
Sorry, I'm not familiar - what's happening in Ireland?
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 8:38 pm
  #2290  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Sorry, I'm not familiar - what's happening in Ireland?
I took part in a citizens' assembly – it could help break the Brexit deadlock

If only Brexit had been run like Ireland’s referendum

Last edited by Red Eric; Jun 16th 2019 at 8:47 pm.
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 9:49 pm
  #2291  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

This.

Thanks Eric - my country's evolution over the last 40 years has been stunning. The citizen's assembly, combined with a representative democracy elected by PR-STV and an active electorate, seems to me to be the apex of a modern democratic state. The transformation of my nation from a religious-conservative backwater to a modern democracy makes me inordinately proud (and a little bemused!!)
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 11:15 pm
  #2292  
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
This.

Thanks Eric - my country's evolution over the last 40 years has been stunning. The citizen's assembly, combined with a representative democracy elected by PR-STV and an active electorate, seems to me to be the apex of a modern democratic state. The transformation of my nation from a religious-conservative backwater to a modern democracy makes me inordinately proud (and a little bemused!!)
That is interesting, but I'm not at all sure that the UK electorate is ready for it in the current tribal climate and the confrontational system that is Westminster. Whoever was randomly selected to be in such an assembly would surely be drawn into the endless tribal arguments in the sense that whoever came out on the "losing" end of the conclusion would claim that it was anti-democratic and non-representative, and with the non-collaborative approach of Westminster and a non-binding bit of advice from the assembly I'm not sure how that would break the deadlock. Not because the system would be bad but because British government is not like the Irish government - more's the pity, apparently. Still, I suppose one has to start somewhere.
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Old Jun 16th 2019, 11:48 pm
  #2293  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
That is interesting, but I'm not at all sure that the UK electorate is ready for it in the current tribal climate and the confrontational system that is Westminster. Whoever was randomly selected to be in such an assembly would surely be drawn into the endless tribal arguments in the sense that whoever came out on the "losing" end of the conclusion would claim that it was anti-democratic and non-representative, and with the non-collaborative approach of Westminster and a non-binding bit of advice from the assembly I'm not sure how that would break the deadlock. Not because the system would be bad but because British government is not like the Irish government - more's the pity, apparently. Still, I suppose one has to start somewhere.
Irish politics have never ceased to amaze me.......... I remember meeting a few LOCAL TDs (MPs) and the "Ceann Comhairle" (speaker) in Tipperary back in the late '70s. I was left bemused, because, whilst I was far by impressed by their individual talents, they had already transformed Irish youth into the best educated in Europe as a result of their pragmatic expansion of tertiary education. Now we have governments presiding over revolutionary changes that seemed impossible back then, contraception, divorce, abortion..... implemented with popular approval. Imagine......
"
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 12:04 am
  #2294  
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Irish politics have never ceased to amaze me.......... I remember meeting a few LOCAL TDs (MPs) and the "Ceann Comhairle" (speaker) in Tipperary back in the late '70s. I was left bemused, because, whilst I was far by impressed by their individual talents, they had already transformed Irish youth into the best educated in Europe as a result of their pragmatic expansion of tertiary education. Now we have governments presiding over revolutionary changes that seemed impossible back then, contraception, divorce, abortion..... implemented with popular approval. Imagine......
"
Yes, it is impressive. When did the current construction of system of representation in the Irish parliament come in?
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 12:38 am
  #2295  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
He also has some lunatic idea about selecting a panel from the public by lottery to advise the government on policy.
It's not lunatic at all. A random panel of real people with an actual platform to give their input is a great idea. It means the government have a constant reminder that its citizens are not only for the run up to elections. You'll never see it happen under a Tory government though, 1. They will never take a leaf out of an 'inferior' country's book, especially one they have history with, and 2. The tories as a rule aren't remotely interested in what their citizens think. This is exactly the sort of change that Westminster needs, they could convene in the House of Lords once they're all slung out.

Last edited by stevenglish1; Jun 17th 2019 at 1:21 am.
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