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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Lion in Winter Aug 1st 2020 9:33 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Watchpost (Post 12890829)
No one should be stripped of their citizenship without due process. Simple as that. Citizenship is "the right to have rights".

If she is accused of treason or some other offence she should be tried and sentenced.

This.

Citizenship and its rights and responsibilities are primary. How citizens behave and how we treat them as a result should be governed by that code. These things should not be left to the judgement or whims of any temporary political administration. If they are, then none of us are protected.

Assanah Aug 2nd 2020 5:39 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12890918)
This.

Citizenship and its rights and responsibilities are primary. How citizens behave and how we treat them as a result should be governed by that code. These things should not be left to the judgement or whims of any temporary political administration. If they are, then none of us are protected.

But she is having her days in court, isn't she? The supreme court will decide if she can travel to the UK to defend herself. And she will be able to fight the decision to strip her of her citizenship in court afterwards. I don't see that due process is an issue here.

DigitalGhost Aug 2nd 2020 7:30 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12890871)
... a camp, run by rebels in an enclave of a country in a state of civil war.... there is no likely positive outcome.

Well to be fair, the UK isn't too far away from that description atm.

And I'm not condemning her to anything. It isn't my place to do so but whether she lives or dies, I couldn't care less.

DaveLovesDee Aug 2nd 2020 7:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12890697)
Begs the question how she could get back, I think she used Easyjet to get out there?

I doubt the people who run the camp will let her leave without a British Embassy-supplied escort and temporary travel document, and she'd be escorted all the way back to the UK, similar to how immigration detainees are removed from the UK.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12890700)
There is literally no way I can imagine she would be able to legally reach the UK from her current location in Syria. She isn't entitled to humanitarian passage as a refugee on a UN flight and the likes of Turkey will not let her enter their territory.

See above


Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12890774)
Should she be forced to go to a country where the population is predominantly brown?

She shouldn't be forced to go anywhere. Wouldn't that be human trafficking?


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12890805)
Did I go to a war zone to fight alongside the enemy? Have I been linked to torture and human rights abuses? When the answer to those questions is yes then you can compare me with her.

I was a supporter of Assange whereas I honestly couldn't care less what happens to this girl. At the end of the day she was old enough to make her own choices and she made them. Now she should face the consequences of her actions.

She was 15 and groomed. Yes, she should account for her actions, but in person in a UK court.


Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 12890807)
I agree...leave her wherever she is to do whatever she wants...except go back to the UK. I don’t see why taxpayers money should be spent on traitors. If she did win the right to remain in the UK...she would have to get a new ID etc etc etc...more taxpayers money.

Traitor is a strong word....

There's no evidence she did anything other than be groomed to fall in love with an asshole, fly to Syria on her sister's passport, and have 3 kids. There's an ad on UK tv at the moment about older men who prey on underage girls for sex, surely there aren't that many differences.

As for UK taypayers, some of us still believe in the rule of law, and innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

DigitalGhost Aug 2nd 2020 7:38 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12891055)
I doubt the people who run the camp will let her leave without a British Embassy-supplied escort and temporary travel document, and she'd be escorted all the way back to the UK, similar to how immigration detainees are removed from the UK.

But that would all need to be done at the UK public's expense so that's off the table.

And please don't compare her with a victim of child sexual abuse or trafficking. She doesn't deserve that level of sympathy or understanding and it's an insult to those real victims.
​​​​​

DaveLovesDee Aug 2nd 2020 8:23 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12891057)
But that would all need to be done at the UK public's expense so that's off the table.

And please don't compare her with a victim of child sexual abuse or trafficking. She doesn't deserve that level of sympathy or understanding and it's an insult to those real victims.
​​​​​

Why isn't she a victim?

DigitalGhost Aug 2nd 2020 10:13 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12891067)
Why isn't she a victim?

Is there any conclusive evidence that she was a victim?

BEVS Aug 2nd 2020 10:17 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Oh for goodness sake.

DaveLovesDee Aug 2nd 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12891093)
Is there any conclusive evidence that she was a victim?

Neither you or I can answer that either way with actual evidence...

Shamima Begum was the victim of a cult – she needs help


Like other cults, Isis targets young people, it indoctrinates and desensitises them. It’s a process, not a lifestyle choice

Anyone who saw her TV interviews will have found her hard to like. Some of her comments supporting terrorist attacks were monstrous. But people who have been recruited into cults believe and say monstrous things. It does not make them monsters – the real versions of themselves and everything they may have believed were destroyed when they were radicalised or, to use an old-fashioned term, brainwashed.


Watchpost Aug 2nd 2020 1:02 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12891093)
Is there any conclusive evidence that she was a victim?

I there any conclusive evidence of anything at all, in her case?

And if there is, shouldn't it be presented to a court? And shouldn't she have the right to be present in that court?


Lion in Winter Aug 2nd 2020 1:06 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891031)
But she is having her days in court, isn't she? The supreme court will decide if she can travel to the UK to defend herself. And she will be able to fight the decision to strip her of her citizenship in court afterwards. I don't see that due process is an issue here.

Unless the appeal by the government goes through, yes, she will get a try to have citizenship returned to her. However, she should just have been tried for any crimes in the first place because law should apply to all, equally, rather than vary with the wishes of administrators of the executive. That's what rule of law is. The principle of equal application of law to all does not vary according to what a person may have done, only the outcome or sentences of that legal process should vary accordingly. If it happens outside the process then none of us are protected.

chawkins99 Aug 2nd 2020 2:51 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
In my opinion, she surrendered all rights to protection under British law and citizenship when she voluntarily deserted our shores and chose to emigrate to ISIS.

She chose to become a citizen of the Islamic State. Just as I chose to become a US Citizen.

Her decision. Her life.

Lion in Winter Aug 2nd 2020 3:00 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12891152)
In my opinion, she surrendered all rights to protection under British law and citizenship when she voluntarily deserted our shores and chose to emigrate to ISIS.

She chose to become a citizen of the Islamic State. Just as I chose to become a US Citizen.

Her decision. Her life.

I'm not being rude, but this is exactly what rule of law is designed to avoid - the disposition of individual cases based on the individual opinions of private people and/or individual ministers or bureaucrats.

Also, the daesh are not a recognized state anywhere as far as I know.

Boiler Aug 2nd 2020 3:22 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12891152)
In my opinion, she surrendered all rights to protection under British law and citizenship when she voluntarily deserted our shores and chose to emigrate to ISIS.

She chose to become a citizen of the Islamic State. Just as I chose to become a US Citizen.

Her decision. Her life.

Interesting that in past times and not that far back the last place she would have wanted to travel to would be the UK.

I am also wondering why anybody would want to risk lives to escort her back. And why it UK's responsibility to be involved with her travel arrangements.

DaveLovesDee Aug 2nd 2020 3:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12891152)
In my opinion, she surrendered all rights to protection under British law and citizenship when she voluntarily deserted our shores and chose to emigrate to ISIS.

She chose to become a citizen of the Islamic State. Just as I chose to become a US Citizen.

Her decision. Her life.

I'm confused. What legal process confers citizenship of a non-legal entity?


Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12891162)
Interesting that in past times and not that far back the last place she would have wanted to travel to would be the UK.

I am also wondering why anybody would want to risk lives to escort her back. And why it UK's responsibility to be involved with her travel arrangements.

Who is risking lives? Whose lives are being risked?


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