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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Lion in Winter Jul 19th 2020 3:12 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12884073)
Who makes the laws?
Countries do whatever they think is in the best interest of the country and not always for its citizens. Are all laws equal and relevant for todays society. No law is perfect.

Not sure what you're saying here. Rule of law has to mean that it applies to all in all circumstances. Or change the law. Leaving it to the choice of the government of the day to decide if, when, or how it chooses to follow the law strikes me as a very bad idea.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 3:17 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12884076)
Not sure what you're saying here. Rule of law has to mean that it applies to all in all circumstances. Or change the law. Leaving it to the choice of the government of the day to decide if, when, or how it chooses to follow the law strikes me as a very bad idea.

But we all know the law doesn't apply equally to everyone regardless of which country you live in. We learn by our mistakes and so do Governments. I am not in favour of any law that allows certain people to get away with things that I as a normal citizen am not afforded. Diplomatic immunity anyone?

Lion in Winter Jul 19th 2020 3:23 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12884077)
But we all know the law doesn't apply equally to everyone regardless of which country you live in. We learn by our mistakes and so do Governments. I am not in favour of any law that allows certain people to get away with things that I as a normal citizen am not afforded. Diplomatic immunity anyone?

I'm not sure why pointing out the deficiencies is an argument for allowing more deficiencies. Nor is anyone proposing that this woman get away with anything, rather that she be dealt with under the law as the law prescribes.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 3:37 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12884080)
I'm not sure why pointing out the deficiencies is an argument for allowing more deficiencies. Nor is anyone proposing that this woman get away with anything, rather that she be dealt with under the law as the law prescribes.

I am not pointing out deficiencies as such. The British courts have stated that under the current law they had the power to revoke her citizenship and did so. A Court of Appeal ruled she should be returned. These Judges are appointed (not elected).
Now we wait and see if she is returned and what happens next. So it appears the law is not as simple as some suggest.

DaveLovesDee Jul 19th 2020 4:47 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12884053)
Most US Citizens do not have a passport.

So they only have a claim to US Citizenship.

Wonder if the know that.

How many US citizens are born abroad and subsequently stripped of the birth nationality having never taken a US passport, and having never visted the US?

Boiler Jul 19th 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12884116)
How many US citizens are born abroad and subsequently stripped of the birth nationality having never taken a US passport, and having never visited the US?

Not a clue, give up, how many?

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 7:10 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12884173)
Not a clue, give up, how many?

I'm betting none but the question is irrelevant.

Shard Jul 19th 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12883928)
de jure = ‘in law’ as opposed to de facto = ‘in fact’, or for all practical purposes.

Thanks. But if Bangladesh won't confirm status, how can it be de jure? Or is it the implication that a legal process would determine that she is Bangledeshi (in which case would she be de facto now). :confused:

kimilseung Jul 19th 2020 8:17 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12884185)
Thanks. But if Bangladesh won't confirm status, how can it be de jure? Or is it the implication that a legal process would determine that she is Bangledeshi (in which case would she be de facto now). :confused:

She probably will never be sent to Bangladesh, as I seem to remember a government member saying she would be executed for terrorism.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 8:24 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by kimilseung (Post 12884206)
She probably will never be sent to Bangladesh, as I seem to remember a government member saying she would be executed for terrorism.

Sadly that will be the case. Wonder what the final bill will be for the taxpayers once this is all resolved. Guarantee that any lawyer representing her won't lose any sleep defending her and will craft a defence in such a way that we actually feel sorry for her.

macliam Jul 19th 2020 8:24 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12884185)
Thanks. But if Bangladesh won't confirm status, how can it be de jure? Or is it the implication that a legal process would determine that she is Bangledeshi (in which case would she be de facto now). :confused:

This is the point, as I previously said, the decision of a UK court cannot force Bangladesh to accept that Begum is a citizen.... all it has done is to put a legal gloss on the decision of the Home Office to offload their problem onto someone else. Each twist and turn in the story, each appeal and counter, burns time - during which, Begum is de facto stateless and being held in poor conditions by rebels in a part of Syria under attack by Government forces and their allies. Should something happen to her whilst all the legal wrangling is going on, it will be one less problem for the Government...... It is little more than summary punishment without trial.

mikemike Jul 19th 2020 11:54 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12884085)
I am not pointing out deficiencies as such. The British courts have stated that under the current law they had the power to revoke her citizenship and did so. A Court of Appeal ruled she should be returned. These Judges are appointed (not elected).
Now we wait and see if she is returned and what happens next. So it appears the law is not as simple as some suggest.

''

''The British courts have stated that under the current law they had the power to revoke her citizenship and did''

I do not believe any court made this decision, it came from the Home Secretary

She is a nasty piece of work, she is OUR nasty piece of work.

Not sure there has been any evidence that says she is a Bangladeshi citizen under their law

BritInParis Jul 20th 2020 12:37 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12884185)
Thanks. But if Bangladesh won't confirm status, how can it be de jure? Or is it the implication that a legal process would determine that she is Bangledeshi (in which case would she be de facto now). :confused:

For the same reason there isn't a court case to determine everyone's nationality the first time they apply for a passport. We know that Begum was born abroad to two Bangladeshi citizen parents who themselves were both born in Bangladesh and therefore under Bangladeshi nationality law that would make her automatically a Bangladeshi citizen by descent until the age of 21. Unless the basic facts change or are tested in court we can safely say that there is a prima facie case that is a Bangladeshi citizen.


Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12884212)
This is the point, as I previously said, the decision of a UK court cannot force Bangladesh to accept that Begum is a citizen.... all it has done is to put a legal gloss on the decision of the Home Office to offload their problem onto someone else. Each twist and turn in the story, each appeal and counter, burns time - during which, Begum is de facto stateless and being held in poor conditions by rebels in a part of Syria under attack by Government forces and their allies. Should something happen to her whilst all the legal wrangling is going on, it will be one less problem for the Government...... It is little more than summary punishment without trial.

The UK cannot force the Bangladeshi government to acknowledge Begum as a citizen but that doesn't change that she is. The only way the Bangladeshi government contest otherwise would be in court but that process would require Begum to first assert her claim to Bangladeshi citizenship which she has refused to do so far.

Former Lancastrian Jul 20th 2020 12:37 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
From the Bangladesh Law Citizenship Act 1951

5. Subject to the provisions of section 3 a person born after the commencement of this Act, shall be a citizen of Bangladesh by descent if his 1[father or mother] is a citizen of Bangladesh at the time of his birth:
Provided that if the 2[father or mother] of such person is a citizen of Bangladesh by descent only, that person shall not be a citizen of Bangladesh by virtue of this section unless-
(a) that person's birth having occurred in a country outside Bangladesh the birth is registered at a Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in that country, or where there is no Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in that country at the prescribed Consulate or Mission or at a Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in the country nearest to that country; or
(b) that person's 3[father or mother] is, at the time of the birth, in the service of any Government in Bangladesh.

http://bdlaws.minlaw.gov.bd/act-242/section-7472.html
5. Subject to the provisions of section 3 a person born after the commencement of this Act, shall be a citizen of Bangladesh by

descent if his 4[ father or mother] is a citizen of Bangladesh at the time of his birth:
https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/tex...ocid=543d0d724

(5) The Government shall not make an order depriving a person of citizenship under this section unless it is satisfied that it is in the public interest that that person should not continue to be a citizen of Bangladesh.

So which Govt is playing games or not living up to their principles.
  1. Ms Begum was born on 25 August 1999 in the United Kingdom, where she was brought up. At birth, she held British citizenship under section 1(1) of the BNA because her parents were both settled in the United Kingdom. SIAC found (in its decision on the first preliminary issue) that she also holds Bangladeshi citizenship by descent through her parents by virtue of section 5 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Act 1951.
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...ent-NCN-02.pdf

BritInParis Jul 20th 2020 12:42 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by mikemike (Post 12884282)
'''The British courts have stated that under the current law they had the power to revoke her citizenship and did''

I do not believe any court made this decision, it came from the Home Secretary

She is a nasty piece of work, she is OUR nasty piece of work.

Not sure there has been any evidence that says she is a Bangladeshi citizen under their law

The Home Secretary deprived Begum of her British citizenship; this was upheld by the courts. As for evidence she is a Bangladeshi citizen, start here.


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