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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Shard Jul 19th 2020 10:50 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
What does Bangladeshi citizen de jure mean ?

BritInParis Jul 19th 2020 10:51 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12883913)
If her citizenship is revoked, she'd be deported to the country of her remaining nationality, either immediately or after whatever sentences she receives in the UK for her crimes.

Only if Bangladesh recognises her claim to citizenship, which they haven’t, and if she is not at risk of capital punishment, which she would be. The moment she returns to the UK the deprivation of her citizenship will be rendered moot. She’ll just be a stateless resident of the UK, whether she’s in prison or not.

BritInParis Jul 19th 2020 10:53 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12883925)
What does Bangladeshi citizen de jure mean ?

de jure = ‘in law’ as opposed to de facto = ‘in fact’, or for all practical purposes.

DaveLovesDee Jul 19th 2020 11:16 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12883923)
Are people who are in there awaiting removal technically under arrest?

I would expect they were, for immigration offences.


Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12883926)
Only if Bangladesh recognises her claim to citizenship, which they haven’t, and if she is not at risk of capital punishment, which she would be. The moment she returns to the UK the deprivation of her citizenship will be rendered moot. She’ll just be a stateless resident of the UK, whether she’s in prison or not.

Did Begum claim Bangladeshi nationality? I thought the government claimed she had it.

BritInParis Jul 19th 2020 11:22 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12883936)
Did Begum claim Bangladeshi nationality? I thought the government claimed she had it.

She doesn’t need to claim it; it’s an automatic action of Bangladeshi nationality law. That Bangladesh refuses to recognise her claim is another matter.

DigitalGhost Jul 19th 2020 1:42 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
To be fair, you can't blame Bangladesh for trying. For the UK to say "yeah this girl has never been to your country but she's a bit shit and we don't want her so here you go. Oh yeah, and by the way she's a terrorist" must be a bit of a tough pill to swallow. If the situation was reversed then the UK wouldn't be having any of it. The UK has also stripped citizenship and deported people to Canada and elsewhere for similar reasons. Those just weren't as high profile as this case.

macliam Jul 19th 2020 2:03 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
At what point are the decisions of the UK government or legal system binding on Bangladesh? Unless Begum has confirmed citizenship and/or a passport, she has a claim to Bangladeshi citizenship, she does not have it. In the absence of such citizenship, depriving her of her British nationality by birth has, de facto, rendered her stateless and passed the buck to anyone other than the UK (in this case those under attack in Syria). It is a clever piece of legal justification for an attempt to offload responsibility - and place the subject in limbo, unable to leave her de facto prison and at risk of harm, without any attempt to charge or try her for any crime.

Those who applaud summary punishment of this type, should consider whether this is something they would support in other instances. Should we kneecap alleged criminals, rather than bring them to court? Should we "disappear" political opponents? Should we intern anyone we suspect of having extreme views?..... be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain that allowing Begum to return to the UK will result in her remaining here..... this seems to be an admission that you applaud HM Government's attempt to evade its responsibilities for a British-born citizen and wash its hands of the likely outcome of its decision. Again, be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain of the likely costs pertaining to the return of Begum to the UK, or the likelihood of her being a font of future radicalization - consider the cost of every missile fired by the UK into Iraq and Syria... and the human cost of the "collateral damage" caused by them. Consider the fact that Begum was radicalized whilst in the UK.... and that she has not been charged with any crimes, so far, nor has it been proven that she did more than travel to and live in the IS caliphate. Consider the ammunition that her treatment provides those who claim the the UK is anti-Muslim and guilty of endemic prejudice. The only way to stop radicalization is to remove the causes for radicalization.

To repeat my own standpoint, I condemn her decision to join with those whose horrendous corruption of Islam led to the murder and enslavement of many thousands. I condemn her for any illegal activities that she may have undertaken and whatever support she provided to daesh. I believe that she should be punished for any and all crimes for which she is responsible and i do not believe that she has any right to a "normal" life until the authorities are satified that she has atoned for her actions and is no longer a source of danger. But, I do NOT accept the moral bakruptcy of abandoning her in a place of danger, removing from her the ability to protect herself and trying to hide all this behind a smokescreen of legality. If the UK believes in summary punishment, then it should stand condemned by all those who believe in justice.


Boiler Jul 19th 2020 2:30 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12884036)
At what point are the decisions of the UK government or legal system binding on Bangladesh? Unless Begum has confirmed citizenship and/or a passport, she has a claim to Bangladeshi citizenship, she does not have it. In the absence of such citizenship, depriving her of her British nationality by birth has, de facto, rendered her stateless and passed the buck to anyone other than the UK (in this case those under attack in Syria). It is a clever piece of legal justification for an attempt to offload responsibility - and place the subject in limbo, unable to leave her de facto prison and at risk of harm, without any attempt to charge or try her for any crime.

Those who applaud summary punishment of this type, should consider whether this is something they would support in other instances. Should we kneecap alleged criminals, rather than bring them to court? Should we "disappear" political opponents? Should we intern anyone we suspect of having extreme views?..... be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain that allowing Begum to return to the UK will result in her remaining here..... this seems to be an admission that you applaud HM Government's attempt to evade its responsibilities for a British-born citizen and wash its hands of the likely outcome of its decision. Again, be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain of the likely costs pertaining to the return of Begum to the UK, or the likelihood of her being a font of future radicalization - consider the cost of every missile fired by the UK into Iraq and Syria... and the human cost of the "collateral damage" caused by them. Consider the fact that Begum was radicalized whilst in the UK.... and that she has not been charged with any crimes, so far, nor has it been proven that she did more than travel to and live in the IS caliphate. Consider the ammunition that her treatment provides those who claim the the UK is anti-Muslim and guilty of endemic prejudice. The only way to stop radicalization is to remove the causes for radicalization.

To repeat my own standpoint, I condemn her decision to join with those whose horrendous corruption of Islam led to the murder and enslavement of many thousands. I condemn her for any illegal activities that she may have undertaken and whatever support she provided to daesh. I believe that she should be punished for any and all crimes for which she is responsible and i do not believe that she has any right to a "normal" life until the authorities are satified that she has atoned for her actions and is no longer a source of danger. But, I do NOT accept the moral bakruptcy of abandoning her in a place of danger, removing from her the ability to protect herself and trying to hide all this behind a smokescreen of legality. If the UK believes in summary punishment, then it should stand condemned by all those who believe in justice.

Most US Citizens do not have a passport.

So they only have a claim to US Citizenship.

Wonder if the know that.

Lion in Winter Jul 19th 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12884036)
At what point are the decisions of the UK government or legal system binding on Bangladesh? Unless Begum has confirmed citizenship and/or a passport, she has a claim to Bangladeshi citizenship, she does not have it. In the absence of such citizenship, depriving her of her British nationality by birth has, de facto, rendered her stateless and passed the buck to anyone other than the UK (in this case those under attack in Syria). It is a clever piece of legal justification for an attempt to offload responsibility - and place the subject in limbo, unable to leave her de facto prison and at risk of harm, without any attempt to charge or try her for any crime.

Those who applaud summary punishment of this type, should consider whether this is something they would support in other instances. Should we kneecap alleged criminals, rather than bring them to court? Should we "disappear" political opponents? Should we intern anyone we suspect of having extreme views?..... be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain that allowing Begum to return to the UK will result in her remaining here..... this seems to be an admission that you applaud HM Government's attempt to evade its responsibilities for a British-born citizen and wash its hands of the likely outcome of its decision. Again, be careful what you wish for.

For those who complain of the likely costs pertaining to the return of Begum to the UK, or the likelihood of her being a font of future radicalization - consider the cost of every missile fired by the UK into Iraq and Syria... and the human cost of the "collateral damage" caused by them. Consider the fact that Begum was radicalized whilst in the UK.... and that she has not been charged with any crimes, so far, nor has it been proven that she did more than travel to and live in the IS caliphate. Consider the ammunition that her treatment provides those who claim the the UK is anti-Muslim and guilty of endemic prejudice. The only way to stop radicalization is to remove the causes for radicalization.

To repeat my own standpoint, I condemn her decision to join with those whose horrendous corruption of Islam led to the murder and enslavement of many thousands. I condemn her for any illegal activities that she may have undertaken and whatever support she provided to daesh. I believe that she should be punished for any and all crimes for which she is responsible and i do not believe that she has any right to a "normal" life until the authorities are satified that she has atoned for her actions and is no longer a source of danger. But, I do NOT accept the moral bakruptcy of abandoning her in a place of danger, removing from her the ability to protect herself and trying to hide all this behind a smokescreen of legality. If the UK believes in summary punishment, then it should stand condemned by all those who believe in justice.

It's hard to argue with this really. Not to mention that I'm reasonably sure that the decision to strip her of her citizenship was an act of public relations, an opportunity to score easy points with the gen pop who understandably don't like her very much, rather than any appeal to law.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 2:56 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Well if you want total honesty I really don't give a **** what happens to her.

macliam Jul 19th 2020 2:58 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12884053)
Most US Citizens do not have a passport.

So they only have a claim to US Citizenship.

Wonder if the know that.

US citizens finding themselves outside US territory without a passport and with no proof of citizenship would likely find themselves in schtuck..... excepting the US military of course :sneaky:

Lion in Winter Jul 19th 2020 3:00 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12884066)
Well if you want total honesty I really don't give a **** what happens to her.

Sure, but that isn't really the issue. The issue is what power does the government/executive have to avoid the rule of law.

macliam Jul 19th 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12884066)
Well if you want total honesty I really don't give a **** what happens to her.

I suspect many feel the same.... however, many also condone a lot of illegal activity.
But would you want to live in a country run on such principles (or lack of them)?

You may be able to close your eyes to things you don't like, but they are still there. Many people did this in former times and we don't applaud it.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 3:08 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12884068)
Sure, but that isn't really the issue. The issue is what power does the government/executive have to avoid the rule of law.

Who makes the laws?
Countries do whatever they think is in the best interest of the country and not always for its citizens. Are all laws equal and relevant for todays society. No law is perfect.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 3:12 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12884069)
I suspect many feel the same.... however, many also condone a lot of illegal activity.
But would you want to live in a country run on such principles (or lack of them)?

You may be able to close your eyes to things you don't like, but they are still there. Many people did this in former times and we don't applaud it.

Name me a country that is pristine and does not conduct illegal activity in some form or another? When you find one let me know and I will then check it out to see If I can move there.


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