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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 8:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12672098)
I did not say you did, what I said was that we afforded the rights to trail and justice to the Nazis who murdered millions, and thus should afford the same rights to Isis..
We are better than them.

Why do you lecture me on this? I never said anything other than that they need to be tried at the courts I also pointed out that joining a terrorist organozation is open to a judicial approach as this is a decicion taken by an individuum - not a summary judgement of a nation. I object to the trivialization of that horrible decision that these women took. I think they are morally deprived and guilty human beings not innocent housewives. That has to be communicated to them on all possible levels. They need to recognize what they did. Only then might they be able to turn their lives around and be a force for good. That is why I object to your whitewashing of those women, of you trying to point the blame to us and deflect it from them. I think it is outrages to trivialize the deeds of these women. They need to feel the pain and rage they have caused and they need to take responsibility. That doesn't mean that we should gas or stone them. But it means we need to classify them as terror supporters and put them to trial and de-radicalize them. These German women still think they can simply return to Germany and live their lifes as if nothing happened. They do expect their husbands to be tried but they themselves no. They are just innocent housewives and mothers. There is something seriously wrong in their heads. And we need to set the record straight. We owe it to their victims. We owe this to justice.


EMR Apr 17th 2019 8:50 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672110)
Why do you lecture me on this? I never said anything other than that they need to be tried at the courts I also pointed out that joining a terrorist organozation is open to a judicial approach as this is a decicion taken by an individuum - not a summary judgement of a nation. I object to the trivialization of that horrible decision that these women took. I think they are morally deprived and guilty human beings not innocent housewives. That has to be communicated to them on all possible levels. They need to recognize what they did. Only then might they be able to turn their lives around and be a force for good. That is why I object to your whitewashing of those women, of you trying to point the blame to us and deflect it from them. I think it is outrages to trivialize the deeds of these women. They need to feel the pain and rage they have caused and they need to take responsibility. That doesn't mean that we should gas or stone them. But it means we need to classify them as terror supporters and put them to trial and de-radicalize them. These German women still think they can simply return to Germany and live their lifes as if nothing happened. They do expect their husbands to be tried but they themselves no. They are just innocent housewives and mothers. There is something seriously wrong in their heads. And we need to set the record straight. We owe it to their victims. We owe this to justice.

Yes we owe it to their victims and our own standards, not to assume the guilt of anyone because we do not like the way they talk , or look.
We might find a person's beliefs distasteful but that is not sufficient to treat them in them in the same way that Isis and similar groups.
We did not condemn the wives and families of the mass nazi murderers even though they shared their beliefs and without doubt knew what they were doing.
You keep referring to their deeds, well courts are the best place for them to be proved, to be publicised , not rumour, media, mob hysteria.
In the camps a new generation of Isis believers is being indoctrinated, they are still controlled by Isis radicals because no one knows what to do with the thousands of men ,women and children living in them.


stevenglish1 Apr 17th 2019 9:24 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12672099)
Clearly you are having your usual comprehension issues.
What is it about our standards of law and justice you do not like.
We are not Isis we are better than them..

Oh yeah and they'll insult your intelligence. No comprehension skills needed when they're this transparent .

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 10:15 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12672121)
Yes we owe it to their victims and our own standards, not to assume the guilt of anyone because we do not like the way they talk , or look.
We might find a person's beliefs distasteful but that is not sufficient to treat them in them in the same way that Isis and similar groups.
We did not condemn the wives and families of the mass nazi murderers even though they shared their beliefs and without doubt knew what they were doing.
You keep referring to their deeds, well courts are the best place for them to be proved, to be publicised , not rumour, media, mob hysteria.
In the camps a new generation of Isis believers is being indoctrinated, they are still controlled by Isis radicals because no one knows what to do with the thousands of men ,women and children living in them.

Last time EMR: joining a terrorist organisation is a DEED, not a distasteful believe. A decision taken by an individual that is open to judicial review (at least in Germany). It is not rumor, it is not mob hysteria.

Cape Blue Apr 17th 2019 10:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672062)
I didn't say to send them to gas chambers. I am really surprised what you all have in your head and what your are projecting on others.

Don't worry, he does it all the time - the EMR strawman argument is famous.

EMR Apr 17th 2019 10:38 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12672167)
Don't worry, he does it all the time - the EMR strawman argument is famous.

Another who has little or any comprehension.
Do you actually have anything to contribute or just trolling as usual.

macliam Apr 17th 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672063)
That's sounds a bit different from your stance at the beginning where you were going on about her being this innocent young girl that was mislead if I remember correctly.

As I said above in Germany it is a crime to join a terrorist organisation which she did. She would be tried for that action alone. Do you think that is not just or not up to Western standards which apparently only you and EMR uphold in this thread? I just really wonder how do you classify the travelling to Syria via deception to join an organisation that openly executes civilians and proudly shows how they saw off their heads on the internet? They knew where they were going. I am happy that these" I am just a housewife" women will get their day in court in Germany. Flattering their eyes won't help.

Just to add to that: There is a difference between summary judgement of a whole nation- not all Germans were nazis, not all Serbs wanted war; ones dictatorship is there and established in your home things get muddy - and judging someone who lives in freedom and safety and decides freely to join a terrorist organisation. It really isn't comparable. That's why I said before that I view Syrians under ISIS differently than Western women.

Do NOT try to misrepresent me - I have only ever said that she should be tried for whatever crimes she can be charged with, not just deprived of her citizenship and left to rot without trial, which is what has happened and which is what others have supported.
I have no issue with her being tried for membership of an illegal organization - the whole point is TRIED, in a court, not by the media. I am also pretty sure that the penalty for this crime in Germany is not being exiled or left to die, so it is an entirely false argument.
As to your final statement - were all members of the nazi party tried and condemned for the actions of the nazi state after WW2? Don't be disingenuous or claim false comparisons, there's enough disinformation flying around already.

macliam Apr 17th 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672155)
Last time EMR: joining a terrorist organisation is a DEED, not a distasteful believe. A decision taken by an individual that is open to judicial review (at least in Germany). It is not rumor, it is not mob hysteria.

It is also not punishable unless proven in a court of law and is not subject to the penalty of exile of death.

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 2:42 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12672227)
It is also not punishable unless proven in a court of law and is not subject to the penalty of exile of death.

SIgh, yes macliam you are the only voice of reason (together with EMR) in the sea of these terrible posters that want to kill innocent brown eyed-girls without due process. We are all ISIS-like except you and EMR. You are the brave fighters for the rule of law and justice. Congratulations.

Lion in Winter Apr 17th 2019 2:45 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672266)
SIgh, yes macliam you are the only voice of reason (together with EMR) in the sea of these terrible posters that want to kill innocent brown eyed-girls without due process. We are all ISIS-like except you and EMR. You are the brave fighters for the rule of law and justice. Congratulations.

Maybe everyone should just calm down?

Nobody has suggested anything of the sort, only that the due process of law should be followed and that suspects should be prosecuted and found guilty prior to sentencing. I'm struggling to see what is unreasonable about that.

Boiler Apr 17th 2019 2:48 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12672267)
Maybe everyone should just calm down?

Nobody has suggested anything of the sort, only that the due process of law should be followed and that suspects should be prosecuted and found guilty prior to sentencing. I'm struggling to see what is unreasonable about that.

That is what I have been saying all the time and assuming there is validity in the reports of her crimes it will be a very long time before the question of her obtaining a UK passport is a pressing issue.

Lion in Winter Apr 17th 2019 2:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12672269)
That is what I have been saying all the time and assuming there is validity in the reports of her crimes it will be a very long time before the question of her obtaining a UK passport is a pressing issue.

So just follow our due process. Sorted.

Javid bowed to the pressure of wanting to do something "popular" and/or was afraid of doing something unpopular while his party is in such a fragile state.

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 4:12 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12672267)
Maybe everyone should just calm down?

Nobody has suggested anything of the sort, only that the due process of law should be followed and that suspects should be prosecuted and found guilty prior to sentencing. I'm struggling to see what is unreasonable about that.

Haven't said it is unreasonable to demand due process. Just think that ISIS women should be called what they are and should be confronted with what they supported. Doesn't need to be though the law, can also be via de-radicalization processes, reports in the media about what happened, teaching children in the schools about the genocide. But please don't show them as innocents attachments to their husbands. They are not. They decided for themselves and they cannot simply return to their former live now they lost the fight.

Lion in Winter Apr 17th 2019 4:31 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672328)
Haven't said it is unreasonable to demand due process. Just think that ISIS women should be called what they are and should be confronted with what they supported. Doesn't need to be though the law, can also be via de-radicalization processes, reports in the media about what happened, teaching children in the schools about the genocide. But please don't show them as innocents attachments to their husbands. They are not. They decided for themselves and they cannot simply return to their former live now they lost the fight.



Has anyone said or suggested that?

Boiler Apr 17th 2019 4:33 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12672344)

Has anyone said or suggested that?

Not exactly, but close.


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