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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

EMR Apr 16th 2019 7:06 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12671556)
Does it bother you that Shamina might just turn out to be what many on this thread have predicted?
Can't you just drop your sexist attitude and see these women for what they are? They supported genocide! They supported slavery, war, terror. I have certain symphathies for the Syrians that lived in ISIS territory because it's there home....but to leave a safe and peaceful country to wage war that's a different matter. The UK government is now talking about making it a crime to move to such territories. Very good it will make it easy to prosecute those women for their crimes.

This "I was just a housewife" and *look innocent with your big brown eyes attitude* is an old female trick. We should not fall for it. We should see them for what they are and take it from there. Don't forget about the genocide of the Yazidis. Don't forget about those raped slaves! Don't forget about those refugees that had to leave because Shamina moved in.

If she is what some believe then it is for the law to prove and decide her fate, not mob rule.
We are not Isis , so let's not start behaving like them..

Assanah Apr 16th 2019 7:08 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671592)
If she is what some believe then it is for the law to prove and decide her fate, not mob rule.
We are not Isis , so let's not start behaving like them..

Nobody is talking about mob rule but about calling those women what they are: supporters of slavery, terror and genocide. They are not innocent or mislead dumb attachments to their husbands. They have chosen to join a terrorist organisation which- in Germany- is a crime. So all these German women will be prosecuted. Because joining a terrorist genocidal shithouse as ISIS is not like taking vacation. These women have made serious morally deprived decisions that have had severe and often deadly onsequences for others. And we owe it to their victims to tell them in their face what they are and demand atonement no matter how big and brown those eyes are. They are not innocent. Period. Innocent are their victims like the little 5 year old Yazidi slave girl that died of thirst because one of those innocent little"brides" didn't consider her life worth anything. When I hear you defend those murderous women I feel so sorry for the Yazidis. Do you consider them to be so low that you would not allow their former masters to be called what they are?

EMR Apr 16th 2019 7:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12671928)
Nobody is talking about mob rule but about calling those women what they are: supporters of slavery, terror and genocide. They are not innocent or mislead dumb attachments to their husbands. They have chosen to join a terrorist organisation which- in Germany- is a crime. So all these German women will be prosecuted. Because joining a terrorist genocidal shithouse as ISIS is not like taking vacation. These women have made serious morally deprived decisions that have had severe and often deadly onsequences for others. And we owe it to their victims to tell them in their face what they are and demand atonement no matter how big and brown those eyes are. They are not innocent. Period. Innocent are their victims like the little 5 year old Yazidi slave girl that died of thirst because one of those innocent little"brides" didn't consider her life worth anything. When I hear you defend those murderous women I feel so sorry for the Yazidis. Do you consider them to be so low that you would not allow their former masters to be called what they are?

​​​​​​
That is what the law is for.
In 1945 the allies did not send the thousands of those guilty of the deaths of Millions to the gas Chambers but tried them in courts where the full horror of their crimes could be proved
That is what should happen to any and all supporters of Isis whose crimes can be proven and a suitable sentence and lengthy imprisonment passed on them
We have to be better in every way .

Boiler Apr 16th 2019 7:52 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671943)
​​​​​​
That is what the law is for.
In 1945 the allies did not send the thousands of those guilty of the deaths of Millions to the gas Chambers but tried them in courts where the full horror of their crimes could be proved
That is what should happen to any and all supporters of Isis whose crimes can be proven and a suitable sentence and lengthy imprisonment passed on them
We have to be better in every way .

Well actually most were not tried in Courts.

But we can agree that justice needs to be done, of for no other reason for closure of the ones wronged.

EMR Apr 16th 2019 8:01 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671944)
Well actually most were not tried in Courts.

But we can agree that justice needs to be done, of for no other reason for closure of the ones wronged.

Thousands of trials including all the surviving Nazi leaders. Unfortunately the anti Russian attitude of the US prevented many. Protected many from receiving the justice they deserved.
The killers of US prisoners of war having their death sentences commuted.

I fear that the surviving Isis fighters will be recruited by one of the powers in the region to fight their own dirty war.
Erdogans Turkey looks a likely suspect.

​​​​​


Boiler Apr 16th 2019 8:06 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671947)
Thousands of trials including all the surviving Nazi leaders. Unfortunately the anti Russian attitude of the US prevented many. Protected many from receiving the justice they deserved.
The killers of US prisoners of war having their death sentences commuted.

I fear that the surviving Isis fighters will be recruited by one of the powers in the region to fight their own dirty war.
Erdogans Turkey looks a likely suspect.

​​​​​

Here we go again you are spouting about things you do not know, for example about 1,000,000 Germans died in USSR captivity, now no doubt some were from natural causes....

EMR Apr 16th 2019 8:15 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671950)
Here we go again you are spouting about things you do not know, for example about 1,000,000 Germans died in USSR captivity, now no doubt some were from natural causes....

Look up the Malmedy trials. Once again you demonstrate just how little Americans know about their history.
Millions more Russians died in Nazi camps.
History books must exist in America ..

macliam Apr 16th 2019 9:03 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671953)
Look up the Malmedy trials. Once again you demonstrate just how little Americans know about their history.
Millions more Russians died in Nazi camps.
History books must exist in America ..

There is no point arguing about who won the prize as best dictator or whether country A or country B were worse, when both sides acted in an inhumane manner. When considering the murders by the Einsatzgruppen in Poland, you have to consider the actions of the NKVD at Katyn too..... the nazis were killing scapegots, the Soviets were clearing the way for future domination, the outcomes were little different. In Bosnia, erstwhile neighbours committed barbarous acts against each other driven by ethnic and/or religious hatred. Cruelty and inhumanity are not so uncommon.

However, whilst we might condemn "the Serbs" for their actions against innocent Bosniacs - and there is little doubt that Serb civilians were aware of the actions being carried out on their behalf - we don't seek to punish every individual for their group behaviour. So that is why I find it disturbing that the justifiable anger at the actions of daesh is being heaped upon one individual - and more, that some seem unwilling even to accept that she should be tried for her actions, but would rather she was summarily condemned without evidence and cast out. Shamima Begum may have been radicalized or she may have willingly joined daesh, I don't know. She may have committed further crimes whilst in the middle east, I don't know. If there is reason to charge her, then she should be brought to account for her actions and sanctioned in whatever way the law dictates - but we cannot just put aside the law in order to dodge uncomfortable choices... because unjust treatment will not bring back the victims or undo their suffering, it will merely have us join daesh in the gutter.


EMR Apr 16th 2019 9:15 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12671969)
There is no point arguing about who won the prize as best dictator or whether country A or country B were worse, when both sides acted in an inhumane manner. When considering the murders by the Einsatzgruppen in Poland, you have to consider the actions of the NKVD at Katyn too..... the nazis were killing scapegots, the Soviets were clearing the way for future domination, the outcomes were little different. In Bosnia, erstwhile neighbours committed barbarous acts against each other driven by ethnic and/or religious hatred. Cruelty and inhumanity are not so uncommon.

However, whilst we might condemn "the Serbs" for their actions against innocent Bosniacs - and there is little doubt that Serb civilians were aware of the actions being carried out on their behalf - we don't seek to punish every individual for their group behaviour. So that is why I find it disturbing that the justifiable anger at the actions of daesh is being heaped upon one individual - and more, that some seem unwilling even to accept that she should be tried for her actions, but would rather she was summarily condemned without evidence and cast out. Shamima Begum may have been radicalized or she may have willingly joined daesh, I don't know. She may have committed further crimes whilst in the middle east, I don't know. If there is reason to charge her, then she should be brought to account for her actions and sanctioned in whatever way the law dictates - but we cannot just put aside the law in order to dodge uncomfortable choices... because unjust treatment will not bring back the victims or undo their suffering, it will merely have us join daesh in the gutter.

Thats the point I made at the very start of this thread. You do not have to act like Isis to think like Isis.
We should be and I hope are much better than that.

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 3:36 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671943)
​​​​​​
That is what the law is for.
In 1945 the allies did not send the thousands of those guilty of the deaths of Millions to the gas Chambers but tried them in courts where the full horror of their crimes could be proved
That is what should happen to any and all supporters of Isis whose crimes can be proven and a suitable sentence and lengthy imprisonment passed on them
We have to be better in every way .

I didn't say to send them to gas chambers. I am really surprised what you all have in your head and what your are projecting on others.

Assanah Apr 17th 2019 3:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12671969)
There is no point arguing about who won the prize as best dictator or whether country A or country B were worse, when both sides acted in an inhumane manner. When considering the murders by the Einsatzgruppen in Poland, you have to consider the actions of the NKVD at Katyn too..... the nazis were killing scapegots, the Soviets were clearing the way for future domination, the outcomes were little different. In Bosnia, erstwhile neighbours committed barbarous acts against each other driven by ethnic and/or religious hatred. Cruelty and inhumanity are not so uncommon.

However, whilst we might condemn "the Serbs" for their actions against innocent Bosniacs - and there is little doubt that Serb civilians were aware of the actions being carried out on their behalf - we don't seek to punish every individual for their group behaviour. So that is why I find it disturbing that the justifiable anger at the actions of daesh is being heaped upon one individual - and more, that some seem unwilling even to accept that she should be tried for her actions, but would rather she was summarily condemned without evidence and cast out. Shamima Begum may have been radicalized or she may have willingly joined daesh, I don't know. She may have committed further crimes whilst in the middle east, I don't know. If there is reason to charge her, then she should be brought to account for her actions and sanctioned in whatever way the law dictates - but we cannot just put aside the law in order to dodge uncomfortable choices... because unjust treatment will not bring back the victims or undo their suffering, it will merely have us join daesh in the gutter.

That's sounds a bit different from your stance at the beginning where you were going on about her being this innocent young girl that was mislead if I remember correctly.

As I said above in Germany it is a crime to join a terrorist organisation which she did. She would be tried for that action alone. Do you think that is not just or not up to Western standards which apparently only you and EMR uphold in this thread? I just really wonder how do you classify the travelling to Syria via deception to join an organisation that openly executes civilians and proudly shows how they saw off their heads on the internet? They knew where they were going. I am happy that these" I am just a housewife" women will get their day in court in Germany. Flattering their eyes won't help.

Just to add to that: There is a difference between summary judgement of a whole nation- not all Germans were nazis, not all Serbs wanted war; ones dictatorship is there and established in your home things get muddy - and judging someone who lives in freedom and safety and decides freely to join a terrorist organisation. It really isn't comparable. That's why I said before that I view Syrians under ISIS differently than Western women.

Boiler Apr 17th 2019 3:55 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672062)
I didn't say to send them to gas chambers. I am really surprised what you all have in your head and what your are projecting on others.

You may notice a pattern.

stevenglish1 Apr 17th 2019 6:20 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672062)
I didn't say to send them to gas chambers. I am really surprised what you all have in your head and what your are projecting on others.

It's easier to tear down someone's argument if you make them out to be a worse human being than Hitler .kind of ironic as that was a little trick he used I believe. It's a perfectly natural human instinct to not want serial killers and their supporters roaming our streets, and we certainly shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.

EMR Apr 17th 2019 6:40 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12672062)
I didn't say to send them to gas chambers. I am really surprised what you all have in your head and what your are projecting on others.

I did not say you did, what I said was that we afforded the rights to trail and justice to the Nazis who murdered millions, and thus should afford the same rights to Isis..
We are better than them.

EMR Apr 17th 2019 6:50 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 12672091)
It's easier to tear down someone's argument if you make them out to be a worse human being than Hitler .kind of ironic as that was a little trick he used I believe. It's a perfectly natural human instinct to not want serial killers and their supporters roaming our streets, and we certainly shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.

Clearly you are having your usual comprehension issues.
What is it about our standards of law and justice you do not like.
We are not Isis we are better than them..


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