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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

vinegarboy Mar 23rd 2019 12:31 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658785)
I'll ignore your tone, which just continues from your previous interjection. I gave you a choice of possibilities, but you seem to have chosen idiot. If (and it's a big if) you actually know anything about Islam, you will know that there is the Quran and other texts, dependent on the form of Islam followed, which, TAKEN TOGETHER, form the basis of religious teaching, interpreted by scholars. You might also know that there are "sword verses" and "peace verses" which have opposing qualities - and that the former were written at a time when Mohammed was on the back foot in the struggle with his enemies. A common view is that these commit Muslims to be strong in defence, but righteous and seeking peace. Thus taking any one verse out of context is always a dangerous ploy...... just as with the Old Testament - when was the last time you sacrificed a goat to Yahweh?? Smart enough for you, or a bit more complex than one line in a tabloid??

Apostasy (rejection of Islam) was originally seen as equivalent to treason, both a political and a religious betrayal, so the punishment was death, as with treason in the West. Later it has been used as a method of "ensuring" loyalty by various rulers, thus once again using it in a "political" sense. However, not all Muslim states punish it - so whilst it is still a capital offence in Saudi Arabia (surprise, surprise), it isn't in Turkey. Again, this is down to the interpretation of religion, which is not something that's black and white - and is open to misinterpretation, just like the Christian flat-earthers, and snake-handlers, etc.

I'll ignore your defence of the indefensible - this is not the time or place to discuss the relative evils of extra-judiciary incarceration. so we'll go straight to the actual point in question. In YOUR view Shamima Begum "chose to be a traitor against HMG", but I'm sure she sees it differently - and you offer no real proof of what that "treason" may be (and, by the way, there is no modern crime of treason, as established earlier) That's what trials are for, they judge the evidence to support legal charges brought against an individual and, if the charges are proven, they provide sanctions - according to statute. There is no form of trial in the civilized world where allegations are punished without due process - so, if as you say "As far as any decent Englishman's concerned... blah, blah", I'm bloody glad I am not part of your company - though it's interesting to see that you feel the BRITISH Home Secretary is doing what the English want...... has the mask slipped there or do you purport to speak for all inhabitants of the UK? Such righteous anger from so far away!!

As you've ignored my tone, so I shall in turn politely ignore your base rudeness ("idiot"), but I do enjoy reading the argumentative substance of your responses on here.

You make it all sound so nice/benign/balanced & happily-ever-after, mon ami. But if it's truly as you say, how is it that it's evidently so incredibly difficult for your imams to keep a lid on things in your perfectly balanced thought universe, such that tens nay hundreds nay thousands nay tens-of-thousands of thy fellow faithful are entirely okay with using passenger planes as living missiles, or crudely cutting off the head of an orange-clad human being, or indeed butchering animals so cruelly, hmm? One simply doesn't see any other religion's adherents doing such on an ongoing daily basis, sunshine.

The 9/11 criminals weren't uneducated savages from desert oases carefully programmed to wreak havoc; they were university-educated young men living in the modern world, & supposedly more than capable of thinking, analysing, & rationalising for themselves, no? How can it be that, if what you say is true, that their imams weren't able to be as convincing against violence as you yourself?

I appreciate that those born into Islam are probably torn up inside about admitting its deep flaws, because to do so would open one to the 'crime' of apostasy & its consequences.

And as for M having had a rough time of it with his own "enemies" in the 600s, do you ever stop to look at other religions around the world & notice that theirs weren't established & forcibly imposed by "sword verses"? What do you think the rest of the world thinks of you, that Islam's a religion of peace? Wake up, it ain't. It wasn't in its beginning, & it sure as eff isn't now, either.

I do appreciate your historical references to post-Ottoman lines drawn on ME maps in European capitals, apparently without any real consideration shown for the peoples living in the ME whose lives would be affected by such strategic-&-resources driven borderlines; Lawrence of Arabia prophetically said as much in his 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom,' as well as directly to his military superiors but was overruled/ignored. So why not have a big Islamic conference in Cairo now & sort it all out amongst yourselves? Wouldn't that be fun? But it'd better happen sooner rather than later, when certain folks' swords might have a quantum mechanical component.

macliam Mar 23rd 2019 1:45 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by vinegarboy (Post 12658847)
As you've ignored my tone, so I shall in turn politely ignore your base rudeness ("idiot"), but I do enjoy reading the argumentative substance of your responses on here.

You make it all sound so nice/benign/balanced & happily-ever-after, mon ami. But if it's truly as you say, how is it that it's evidently so incredibly difficult for your imams to keep a lid on things in your perfectly balanced thought universe, such that tens nay hundreds nay thousands nay tens-of-thousands of thy fellow faithful are entirely okay with using passenger planes as living missiles, or crudely cutting off the head of an orange-clad human being, or indeed butchering animals so cruelly, hmm? One simply doesn't see any other religion's adherents doing such on an ongoing daily basis, sunshine.

The 9/11 criminals weren't uneducated savages from desert oases carefully programmed to wreak havoc; they were university-educated young men living in the modern world, & supposedly more than capable of thinking, analysing, & rationalising for themselves, no? How can it be that, if what you say is true, that their imams weren't able to be as convincing against violence as you yourself?

I appreciate that those born into Islam are probably torn up inside about admitting its deep flaws, because to do so would open one to the 'crime' of apostasy & its consequences.

As for M having had a rough time of it with his own "enemies" in the 600s, do you ever stop to look at other religions around the world & notice that theirs weren't established & forcibly imposed by "sword verses"? What do you think the rest of the world thinks of you, that Islam's a religion of peace? Wake up, it ain't. It wasn't in its beginning, & it sure as eff isn't now, either.

Re-read what you have written - and then complain to me about "tone", I am not your ami, nor am I sunshine, nor have I any interest in joining any club to which you belong. I have countered any and all false or incorrect claims that you have made - but what you and others have written of late has brought me to a difficult decision - from this point I intend to allow you to wallow in your own mire.

I have an interest in history and I am a pragmatist, so what I do try to do is look beyond the obvious, not in a "conspiracy theory" way, but in the true belief that we are where we are due to incidents in the past..... and we need to understand the drivers that brought us here, regardless of the discomfort that may cause. I am neither a Muslim, nor am I of Muslim descent, nor am I religious, other than the impact of my own upbringing - so I am poorly qualified to defend any faith against the continued muck-slinging of those whose prejudice will not let them see beyond their own views - and you seem to have an endless supply of muck in your cess-pit. However, what you have demonstrated, without any doubt whatsoever, is your deep antipathy towards Islam and Muslims in general - an antipathy that goes beyond a reaction to the obscenities committed by daesh or Al Quaeda or the Taliban to an attack on the fundamentals of a world faith and on those who practice it. Had you made such an attack on Jews or other "protected" minorities, you would be subject to legal censure - yet you seem to believe you are justified in spewing your bile on this forum. So be it - if others agree with you, they too can wallow in your mire.

What you have done, is to demonstrate that this is not a safe space for any Muslim to enter. Well done!! Hoo-rah for the forces of evil. I give you your "victory" and will not respond further to your barbs and misinformation. If you are a believer in divine retribution, I'd buy a tin hat, fast.

What you have also done (thank you!) is to prove without doubt that the "crime" that Shamima Begum committed was nothing that can be brought to trial - her crime is to be a lightning rod for all the impotent rage of armchair warriors like you. Enjoy.

vinegarboy Mar 23rd 2019 2:07 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658877)
Re-read what you have written - and then complain to me about "tone", I am not your ami, nor am I sunshine, nor have I any interest in joining any club to which you belong. I have countered any and all false or incorrect claims that you have made - but what you and others have written of late has brought me to a difficult decision - from this point I intend to allow you to wallow in your own mire.

I have an interest in history and I am a pragmatist, so what I do try to do is look beyond the obvious, not in a "conspiracy theory" way, but in the true belief that we are where we are due to incidents in the past..... and we need to understand the drivers that brought us here, regardless of the discomfort that may cause. I am neither a Muslim, nor am I of Muslim descent, nor am I religious, other than the impact of my own upbringing - so I am poorly qualified to defend any faith against the continued muck-slinging of those whose prejudice will not let them see beyond their own views - and you seem to have an endless supply of muck in your cess-pit. However, what you have demonstrated, without any doubt whatsoever, is your deep antipathy towards Islam and Muslims in general - an antipathy that goes beyond a reaction to the obscenities committed by daesh or Al Quaeda or the Taliban to an attack on the fundamentals of a world faith and on those who practice it. Had you made such an attack on Jews or other "protected" minorities, you would be subject to legal censure - yet you seem to believe you are justified in spewing your bile on this forum. So be it - if others agree with you, they too can wallow in your mire.

What you have done, is to demonstrate that this is not a safe space for any Muslim to enter. Well done!! Hoo-rah for the forces of evil. I give you your "victory" and will not respond further to your barbs and misinformation. If you are a believer in divine retribution, I'd buy a tin hat, fast.

What you have also done (thank you!) is to prove without doubt that the "crime" that Shamima Begum committed was nothing that can be brought to trial - her crime is to be a lightning rod for all the impotent rage of armchair warriors like you. Enjoy.

So, no actual answers to any of my points above, just flustered anger, impotent rage, & a de facto prayer for divine retribution upon me personally; thanks for that kind wish, buddy.

Nobody's denying the importance & relevance of history in here.

And there are no "protected minorities" as you put it that can't be questioned or asked to explain or to give an account of themselves (e.g., illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, or Prince MBS for his murderous butchery of a certain journalist in Turkey last October), so you can take that conspiracy theory of yours & shove it.

SB is unwelcome back because, having actively espoused terrorism, & having clearly been willing to pop out potential new warriors at a cracking pace, nobody wants her doing that back in the UK whilst cynically living on welfare at taxpayers' expense; we're just not that dumb to fall for such a ploy.

So wallow in mire yourself, Mr. World Historian & Pragmatist, & have a nice life.

Boiler Mar 23rd 2019 3:38 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Can not help but wonder what the apology is for Pol Pot.

Boiler Apr 3rd 2019 2:39 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

A British woman who joined Isis in Syria and recruited teenage girls has pleaded to return to the UK for a “normal life”.

Tooba Gondal’s appeal was a stark contrast to a previous Twitter post where she attacked “lies that muhajireen regret hijrah [joining Isis] and desperately want to return” to the west.

She had used social media to urge “sisters” to join her in the terrorist group’s strongholds, while celebrating terror attacks and condemning the “kuffar” [disbelievers].

Tweeting under the name Umm Muthanna al-Britannia, she shared a photo of herself brandishing an AK-47 with the caption “living the life”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8851656.html

Another candidate for de radicalisation.

Pulaski Apr 3rd 2019 3:14 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12665159)
….. Another candidate for de radicalisation.

I think I prefer defenestration. :unsure:

BristolUK Apr 3rd 2019 3:23 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12665164)
I think I prefer defenestration. :unsure:

So long as there's a window of opportunity?

Boiler Apr 14th 2019 3:15 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Shamima Begum was a member of the Isis morality police, a feared group which enforced the terror organisation’s strict interpretation of Islamic law, according to reports.


The 19-year-old British citizen, who fled her home in Bethnal Green four years ago with two other schoolgirls, has claimed that she was only a “housewife” during her time living with the group in Syria.

But according to a report in The Sunday Telegraph she played a much more active role in the organisation’s reign of terror as a member of the “hisba” – which metes out punishment to those found flouting Isis laws on how to dress and behave.

One activist quoted by the newspaper said Begum had been seen holding an automatic weapon and shouting at Syrian women in the city of Raqqa for wearing brightly coloured shoes.

“Members of our group from Raqqa knew her well,” said Aghiad al-Kheder, an activist from Deir ez-Zor who founded an anti-Isis collective that published information about Isis crimes from sources on the ground.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8869016.html

chawkins99 Apr 15th 2019 1:20 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Shamima Begum: IS bride 'given legal aid' for citizenship fight

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 1:42 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12671073)

I am not surprised, what that grubby lawyer was going for.

The Media will obviously run with how is there money for this when so many people who are not Terrorists are getting nothing.

To which of course there is no real answer.

Lion in Winter Apr 15th 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
From the BBC arcile on the subject:. It all seems like a perfectly normal procedure that follows British law, and law should never be confused with a popularity contest. Nor is "due process" the same as 'judgement". Whatever one's feelings on this woman's actions, sidestepping the law on individual cases isn't a good idea at all.

.."Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt said the Legal Aid Agency's decision to assist Ms Begum made him "very uncomfortable".
He added, however, that the UK was "a country that believes that people with limited means should have access to the resources of the state if they want to challenge the decisions the state has made about them"...

...The legal aid that has been granted covers a case before the semi-secret Special Immigration Appeals Commission, which adjudicates on cases where the home secretary has stripped someone of their nationality on grounds of national security....

...It is not yet clear when the case will be heard but the Siac process can take years to complete - and granting of legal aid in these circumstances is not unusual.
Over the last decade or so there have been many other people stripped of nationality on the basis they are linked to terrorism who have been legally-aided during the SIAC process."




https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47934721

Pulaski Apr 15th 2019 2:59 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12671125)
From the BBC arcile on the subject:. It all seems like a perfectly normal procedure that follows British law, and law should never be confused with a popularity contest. Nor is "due process" the same as 'judgement". Whatever one's feelings on this woman's actions, sidestepping the law on individual cases isn't a good idea at all. ...

Couldn't we just stone her and be done with it? :unsure:

EMR Apr 15th 2019 3:03 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671088)
I am not surprised, what that grubby lawyer was going for.

The Media will obviously run with how is there money for this when so many people who are not Terrorists are getting nothing.

To which of course there is no real answer.

Fortunately in the UK we have higher standards than those you believe in.
If the government has a justifiable case within the law it will not have to overturn its decision, if not it will lose.
The government cocked up past cases ( Theresa May was Home secretary ) which is why the legal bills were so high.
We have friends both barristers who take on legal aid as is their requirement , they do not do it for the money, they have to wait months to get paid..
Remember government barristers also charge for their services., they do not do it for free.

Lion in Winter Apr 15th 2019 3:06 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12671128)
Couldn't we just stone her and be done with it? :unsure:

Only if I can put Rees Mogg, Boris, Farage, and Cameron in the ring with her.

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 3:09 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12671128)
Couldn't we just stone her and be done with it? :unsure:

Her punishment should be according to her own belief systems?

Well I can see that she is entitled to take the case through the system, how you morally justify paying her legal defence costs and not those of others dealing with the legal system is a mystery. So much for equality.


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