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Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Old Mar 23rd 2019, 12:06 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Most people on here see no issue with her British Citizenship being revoked.

Having your head chopped off, being used as a sex slave, we can agree, a genuine grievance.

I agree survived is a good word, no doubt a factor in I forget the word the Jewish movement to other areas.
Unfortunately, "most people" might support the death penalty. I don't and will argue against it forever.
The rule of law is all we have to separate us from the beasts - any attempt to disregard it makes us no better than them.
So, unapologetically, I think you and anyone else who thinks like you is wrong - and in other circumstances you would object to what has been done, not excuse it.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 12:15 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
My point is that, due to the influence of this fundamentalist Arabian branch of Sunni Islam, things are actually worse now than before. However, that being said, the influence of Israel and interventions by the West haven;t helped either. It's a perfect storm - and the Saudis appear to be riding it in order to spread their influence. Remember, this is a state which didn't exist 100 years ago, ruled by tribes who were regarded with disdain by the Ottomans......
If we accept the cause is what you state and I think it is more complicated, the outcome is still the same.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 12:47 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
My point is that, due to the influence of this fundamentalist Arabian branch of Sunni Islam, things are actually worse now than before. However, that being said, the influence of Israel and interventions by the West haven;t helped either. It's a perfect storm - and the Saudis appear to be riding it in order to spread their influence. Remember, this is a state which didn't exist 100 years ago, ruled by tribes who were regarded with disdain by the Ottomans......
Worse because of ISIS? Export of terrorism?

Blaming the West/US/Israel is a short sighted excuse - without them you would still see widespread persecution of religious minorities in the ME. Taxing non-Muslims, preventing building of houses of worship, or cutting the heads off your neighbors for believing in the "wrong" variation of your religion has been happening for over 1000 years. All the way to today apparently.




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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 1:33 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
AFTER due process, i'd hope - that's the point here. As to the words of their holy book, Islam coexisted with other religions for centuries (hence the existence of Copts, Yazidis and middle-eastern Jews, etc., etc.) and the book is little different to any other - in fact it was previously interpreted to advise tolerance of "the people of the book", i.e. Jews and Christians, who share the same basic Abrahamic scripture. None of this has any affect on daesh, as Islam also forbids the killing of another Muslim - it is "haram". So daesh decide that Shia are NOT Muslim and kill them at leisure. The Taliban similarly interpreted the words to justify their abuse of Islam. People have suggested that Das Kapital was responsible for the Stalinist purges too........
As for Russia, I hear what you say and raise you Guantanamo - two wrongs don't make a right.
Guantanamo didn't "disappear" anybody. And you can cut Islam any which way you please, but the hard-core bottom line of that religion is that in their book it says in black-&-white that it's apparently the Deity-dictated duty of every Muslim to give every non-Muslim the following choice: convert/believe/submit or hasta la vista, baby. Hast thou investigated this aspect for thine self, Monsieur?

If there's ever a time-machine invented, you can bet that the first times one'd nip back to would be 1920s Germany to deal with a certain Austrian corporal/deadbeat, followed by a prompt excursion back to the 600s(?) in order to deal with a certain rug-seller.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 2:20 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
Worse because of ISIS? Export of terrorism?

Blaming the West/US/Israel is a short sighted excuse - without them you would still see widespread persecution of religious minorities in the ME. Taxing non-Muslims, preventing building of houses of worship, or cutting the heads off your neighbors for believing in the "wrong" variation of your religion has been happening for over 1000 years. All the way to today apparently.
Comment is not proof - cite your sources and explain why the things you claim are specific to Islam. The church of the Holy Sepulchre has existed throughout the Muslim occupation of what they consider the second city of Islam. Christian pilgrims were protected and given safe passage to their holy sites. Coptic churches have existed in Egypt throughout the Muslim period, etc., etc. On the other hand, the Christian victors built a Cathedral within one of the holiest mosques in Spain and persecuted both Muslims and Sephardic Jews relentlessly. Europe was torn apart by Christian religious wars throughout the 16th and 17th centuries - men, women and children were murdered at the hands of religious zealots. Are you suggesting Islam has seen worse than this? Or are you comparing the supposedly civilized westerners who proposed the use of mustard gas against tribesmen, with the actions of those ignorant tribesmen in the first place - who were protecting their own home and culture against foreign domination? Where there are examples of Muslim atrocity, and they exist, correlation does not imply causation - they were committed by men who were Muslims, but not all Muslims committed these atrocities any more than all men did so - or do you suggest that all Spaniards or all Christians were responsible for the destruction of the Inca?

If you do not believe that constant western intervention in the Middle East since before the fall of the Ottoman empire has caused issues, that the creation of the State of Israel and the displacement of Muslims from lands they had occupied for a millennium caused issues, that the recent influence of fundamentalist Muslim preachers funded by Saudi Arabia has caused issues and/or think that the the whole problem is because Islam and Muslims are evil, then you are either ignorant of the facts or you are a fool or you are blinding yourself to the most basic rules of physics and life - that nothing moves unless it is pushed and that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Whatever the reason, you offer nothing to resolve the issue.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 2:33 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
Guantanamo didn't "disappear" anybody. And you can cut Islam any which way you please, but the hard-core bottom line of that religion is that in their book it says in black-&-white that it's apparently the Deity-dictated duty of every Muslim to give every non-Muslim the following choice: convert/believe/submit or hasta la vista, baby. Hast thou investigated this aspect for thine self, Monsieur?

If there's ever a time-machine invented, you can bet that the first times one'd nip back to would be 1920s Germany to deal with a certain Austrian corporal/deadbeat, followed by a prompt excursion back to the 600s(?) in order to deal with a certain rug-seller.
Are you an idiot or just trying to be provocative? Guantanamo is a non-national US base where the normal rule of law is suspended and people are kept incarcerated without charge or trial - no official list of the prisoners held there has ever been published, some have been held for over a decade without charge and one 13 year-old boy was held without charge or trial for 2 years. In what way is this not "disappearing" people? Your representation of Islam is both incorrect and ignorant - unless you also accept that flat-earth, snake-handling zealots hanging witches are the true representatives of Christianity, so please don't try to suggest that you have any knowledge of the matter, other than the story-book ramblings of the gutter press.

Whatever the case, I will, once again, remind everyone that this thread is about the actions of the British Home Secretary to strip a 19-year old woman of her citizenship. The degree of bile vomited forth in this thread against Islam and Muslims in general - and latterly against Mohammed, does no credit to anyone here and reminds me of the anti-Jewish diatribes of the last century. However, in that way, support for the treatment of Shamima makes sense - because she has become your vampire, your witch, your target for all the pent-up fury against her religion and people - and, very usefully, a target who cannot hit back or even defend herself from your attacks. Shame on you.

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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 3:17 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Comment is not proof - cite your sources and explain why the things you claim are specific to Islam. The church of the Holy Sepulchre has existed throughout the Muslim occupation of what they consider the second city of Islam. Christian pilgrims were protected and given safe passage to their holy sites. Coptic churches have existed in Egypt throughout the Muslim period, etc., etc. On the other hand, the Christian victors built a Cathedral within one of the holiest mosques in Spain and persecuted both Muslims and Sephardic Jews relentlessly. Europe was torn apart by Christian religious wars throughout the 16th and 17th centuries - men, women and children were murdered at the hands of religious zealots. Are you suggesting Islam has seen worse than this? Or are you comparing the supposedly civilized westerners who proposed the use of mustard gas against tribesmen, with the actions of those ignorant tribesmen in the first place - who were protecting their own home and culture against foreign domination? Where there are examples of Muslim atrocity, and they exist, correlation does not imply causation - they were committed by men who were Muslims, but not all Muslims committed these atrocities any more than all men did so - or do you suggest that all Spaniards or all Christians were responsible for the destruction of the Inca?

If you do not believe that constant western intervention in the Middle East since before the fall of the Ottoman empire has caused issues, that the creation of the State of Israel and the displacement of Muslims from lands they had occupied for a millennium caused issues, that the recent influence of fundamentalist Muslim preachers funded by Saudi Arabia has caused issues and/or think that the the whole problem is because Islam and Muslims are evil, then you are either ignorant of the facts or you are a fool or you are blinding yourself to the most basic rules of physics and life - that nothing moves unless it is pushed and that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Whatever the reason, you offer nothing to resolve the issue.
Now you're resorting to just misquoting.

I said religious minorities have been persecuted in the ME for years, way before Israel/US/the west. I also never said Israel/US/the west did nothing.

And I never said only Muslims operated this way. That's all you.

However I've never heard of a non-muslim asking for taxes from other non-Muslims to show loyalty. Just google jizya and read for a bit.

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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 3:30 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
Now you're resorting to just misquoting.

I said religious minorities have been persecuted in the ME for years, way before Israel/US/the west. I also never said Israel/US/the west did nothing.

And I never said only Muslims operated this way. That's all you.

However I've never heard of a non-muslim asking for taxes from other non-Muslims to show loyalty. Just google jizya and read for a bit.
I am still trying to work out what the Inca's have got to do with this, they did have a bit of a ISIS'ish attitude to their captives.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 3:33 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Are you an idiot or just trying to be provocative? Guantanamo is a non-national US base where the normal rule of law is suspended and people are kept incarcerated without charge or trial - no official list of the prisoners held there has ever been published, some have been held for over a decade without charge and one 13 year-old boy was held without charge or trial for 2 years. In what way is this not "disappearing" people? Your representation of Islam is both incorrect and ignorant - unless you also accept that flat-earth, snake-handling zealots hanging witches are the true representatives of Christianity, so please don't try to suggest that you have any knowledge of the matter, other than the story-book ramblings of the gutter press.

Whatever the case, I will, once again, remind everyone that this thread is about the actions of the British Home Secretary to strip a 19-year old woman of her citizenship. The degree of bile vomited forth in this thread against Islam and Muslims in general - and latterly against Mohammed, does no credit to anyone here and reminds me of the anti-Jewish diatribes of the last century. However, in that way, support for the treatment of Shamima makes sense - because she has become your vampire, your witch, your target for all the pent-up fury against her religion and people - and, very usefully, a target who cannot hit back or even defend herself from your attacks. Shame on you.
What a load of bullsugar, & thanks for calling me an idiot, sunshine.

Okay smarty, is there or isn't there a direct command in there as per what was written above (i.e., submit to Allah or perish by the sword)? Y or N. (Answer truthfully, as You-know-who's watching you & recording everything.)

And what's their book's prescribed punishment for apostasy (i.e., renouncing the faith of Islam)? Is it to (a.) shake hands & wish them well on their personal spiritual journey, or (b.) curtains?

And "disappearing" someone means to erase that person from physical existence & to plant them deep, beyond finding (e.g., poor Mr. Khashoggi); not to put them in a jail cell in Cuba & feed/water/house them at taxpayers' expense, while figuring out what to do with them apart from having subtracted them from the battlefield.

Your 19yo woman had the benefit of having been raised in a modern Western democracy, with all of the benefits that that entails, but she deliberately chose to be a traitor against HMG. As far as any decent Englishman's concerned, she's made her bed & now she must lie down in it, as dusty, gritty, & parasite-infested as it might be. She's said that she has no regrets about disobeying her parents, quitting school, etc., etc. So be it. Enjoy.

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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 4:45 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
Now you're resorting to just misquoting.

I said religious minorities have been persecuted in the ME for years, way before Israel/US/the west. I also never said Israel/US/the west did nothing.

And I never said only Muslims operated this way. That's all you.

However I've never heard of a non-muslim asking for taxes from other non-Muslims to show loyalty. Just google jizya and read for a bit.
OK, and I haven't said they weren't - I just reject any claim that it was standard practice and posit that issues have worsened in recent years due to western interference, etc. (I mentioned the creation of Israel, not any subsequent actions or actions by the USA - that's all you) Actually the root of many problems is down to the Anglo-French subdivision of the Ottoman lands after WW1..... the US are latecomers, but have been trying hard to catch up! As was standard practice, the Western powers divided territory according to physical or political constraints, without regard to the people living there, their traditions, history, rivalries, etc. The one place this did not occur was in Arabia, where the house of Saud was rewarded for its service to the allies.

With regard to Jizyah, I could also ask whether you have checked it - as it is true that it was a levy, but on all sane, free, non-Muslim men of "military age" (anyone else was exempt). This was in place of military service and other duties required of Muslims - and those who volunteered for military service were also exempted. So, actually it was a levy in place of service - nothing unusual there, in fact it meant that non-Muslims were NOT expected to provide such service or coerced into it, so it was rather civilized. Contrast that with Leibzoll (or Judengeleit) in the German states - or Toleranzgebührer in Austria-Hungary which was levied against Jews as "compensation" for their toleration, or Korobka which was levied in Russia on every animal slaughtered in the kosher tradition, or the special taxes on books written in Hebrew, etc., etc.. These were taxes levied just because someone was Jewish or required Jewish artifacts or food. Equally you might like to look at the fines levied on Catholics for not attending Church of England services after the Reformation (1559 Act of Uniformity). Taxing "outsiders" is not unique to Islam.
Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
I am still trying to work out what the Inca's have got to do with this, they did have a bit of a ISIS'ish attitude to their captives.
As I'm sure someone as quick as you can work out, I am suggesting that blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few is like blaming all Spaniards for the slaughter of the Inca. Is that clear now??
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 4:53 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

I am not sure how you would know if the Spaniards of the time supported the Conquestida's or not, I doubt a survey was taken at the time.

My assumption is that the majority would not even know what an Inca was. If they had heard of them my supposition is that it would not have been an issue of great concern.
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 5:01 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
I am not sure how you would know if the Spaniards of the time supported the Conquestida's or not, I doubt a survey was taken at the time.

My assumption is that the majority would not even know what an Inca was. If they had heard of them my supposition is that it would not have been an issue of great concern.
Don't worry, Boiler. McLameDuck's a slippery fish & wants to go down a "don't blame the many for the actions of the few" argument, as opposed to him being ruthlessly upfront/honest & admitting on here that there's a fundamental problem in their book's edicts/commandments (viz. submit or perish).
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 5:38 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
What a load of bullsugar, & thanks for calling me an idiot, sunshine.

Okay smarty, is there or isn't there a direct command in there as per what was written above (i.e., submit to Allah or perish by the sword)? Y or N. (Answer truthfully, as You-know-who's watching you & recording everything.)

And what's their book's prescribed punishment for apostasy (i.e., renouncing the faith of Islam)? Is it to (a.) shake hands & wish them well on their personal spiritual journey, or (b.) curtains?

And "disappearing" someone means to erase that person from physical existence & to plant them deep, beyond finding (e.g., poor Mr. Khashoggi); not to put them in a jail cell in Cuba & feed/water/house them at taxpayers' expense, while figuring out what to do with them apart from having subtracted them from the battlefield.

Your 19yo woman had the benefit of having been raised in a modern Western democracy, with all of the benefits that that entails, but she deliberately chose to be a traitor against HMG. As far as any decent Englishman's concerned, she's made her bed & now she must lie down in it, as dusty, gritty, & parasite-infested as it might be. She's said that she has no regrets about disobeying her parents, quitting school, etc., etc. So be it. Enjoy.
I'll ignore your tone, which just continues from your previous interjection. I gave you a choice of possibilities, but you seem to have chosen idiot. If (and it's a big if) you actually know anything about Islam, you will know that there is the Quran and other texts, dependent on the form of Islam followed, which, TAKEN TOGETHER, form the basis of religious teaching, interpreted by scholars. You might also know that there are "sword verses" and "peace verses" which have opposing qualities - and that the former were written at a time when Mohammed was on the back foot in the struggle with his enemies. A common view is that these commit Muslims to be strong in defence, but righteous and seeking peace. Thus taking any one verse out of context is always a dangerous ploy...... just as with the Old Testament - when was the last time you sacrificed a goat to Yahweh?? Smart enough for you, or a bit more complex than one line in a tabloid??

Apostasy (rejection of Islam) was originally seen as equivalent to treason, both a political and a religious betrayal, so the punishment was death, as with treason in the West. Later it has been used as a method of "ensuring" loyalty by various rulers, thus once again using it in a "political" sense. However, not all Muslim states punish it - so whilst it is still a capital offence in Saudi Arabia (surprise, surprise), it isn't in Turkey. Again, this is down to the interpretation of religion, which is not something that's black and white - and is open to misinterpretation, just like the Christian flat-earthers, and snake-handlers, etc.

I'll ignore your defence of the indefensible - this is not the time or place to discuss the relative evils of extra-judiciary incarceration. so we'll go straight to the actual point in question. In YOUR view Shamima Begum "chose to be a traitor against HMG", but I'm sure she sees it differently - and you offer no real proof of what that "treason" may be (and, by the way, there is no modern crime of treason, as established earlier) That's what trials are for, they judge the evidence to support legal charges brought against an individual and, if the charges are proven, they provide sanctions - according to statute. There is no form of trial in the civilized world where allegations are punished without due process - so, if as you say "As far as any decent Englishman's concerned... blah, blah", I'm bloody glad I am not part of your company - though it's interesting to see that you feel the BRITISH Home Secretary is doing what the English want...... has the mask slipped there or do you purport to speak for all inhabitants of the UK? Such righteous anger from so far away!!

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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 5:46 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by vinegarboy View Post
Don't worry, Boiler. McLameDuck's a slippery fish & wants to go down a "don't blame the many for the actions of the few" argument, as opposed to him being ruthlessly upfront/honest & admitting on here that there's a fundamental problem in their book's edicts/commandments (viz. submit or perish).
Found your own level? I'll leave you there
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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 10:00 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
OK, and I haven't said they weren't - I just reject any claim that it was standard practice and posit that issues have worsened in recent years due to western interference, etc. (I mentioned the creation of Israel, not any subsequent actions or actions by the USA - that's all you) Actually the root of many problems is down to the Anglo-French subdivision of the Ottoman lands after WW1..... the US are latecomers, but have been trying hard to catch up! As was standard practice, the Western powers divided territory according to physical or political constraints, without regard to the people living there, their traditions, history, rivalries, etc. The one place this did not occur was in Arabia, where the house of Saud was rewarded for its service to the allies.

With regard to Jizyah, I could also ask whether you have checked it - as it is true that it was a levy, but on all sane, free, non-Muslim men of "military age" (anyone else was exempt). This was in place of military service and other duties required of Muslims - and those who volunteered for military service were also exempted. So, actually it was a levy in place of service - nothing unusual there, in fact it meant that non-Muslims were NOT expected to provide such service or coerced into it, so it was rather civilized. Contrast that with Leibzoll (or Judengeleit) in the German states - or Toleranzgebührer in Austria-Hungary which was levied against Jews as "compensation" for their toleration, or Korobka which was levied in Russia on every animal slaughtered in the kosher tradition, or the special taxes on books written in Hebrew, etc., etc.. These were taxes levied just because someone was Jewish or required Jewish artifacts or food. Equally you might like to look at the fines levied on Catholics for not attending Church of England services after the Reformation (1559 Act of Uniformity). Taxing "outsiders" is not unique to Islam.

As I'm sure someone as quick as you can work out, I am suggesting that blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few is like blaming all Spaniards for the slaughter of the Inca. Is that clear now??
And you know what went along with the jizya? That's just one part of it. Surely you're not suggesting it was only a substitute for service to the state and the minority religions had freedom to do as they pleased? This still goes on.

Last edited by anotherlimey; Mar 23rd 2019 at 10:02 am.
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