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Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Old Mar 22nd 2019, 6:19 pm
  #886  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Same deal in the US, back up and make sure, a lot cheaper.

If you have a Backhoe even better.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 7:47 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Odd then, that after centuries, the Yazidis and other minority non-Muslim religions still exist. Odd that many of the early leaders of Israel came from families who had lived within a primarily Islamic culture within an Islamic empire for centuries. I worked with an Iraqi jew who only left his native land due to opposition to Sadaam Hussein.
This is an interesting argument. But I think you'd need more history on the who ruled and how before trying to make this point.

In many cases minority religions are not treated equally. They're not free or equal. In some cases they barely survived.

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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 7:57 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
This is an interesting argument. But I think you'd need more history on the who ruled and how before trying to make this point.

In many cases minority religions are not treated equally. They're not free or equal. In some cases they barely survived.
You could say the same about Blacks in the US, how come they still exist?
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 8:03 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
This is an interesting argument. But I think you'd need more history on the who ruled and how before trying to make this point.

In many cases minority religions are not treated equally. They're not free or equal. In some cases they barely survived.
Sorry - they survived - and some even prospered - at least as well as Jews prospered in Europe. Check the position of Jews under the various caliphates in Spain, set against their treatment by the Christian inquisition.

I am not claiming that either the rulers or the people were saints, or overly tolerant, but that minorities were not persecuted in the way that recent events might suggest. Saudi-backed Salafism over the last few decades has skewed the tolerance of "alternates" across the Muslim world and to equate this with "Islam" in general is to suggest that the snake-handlers represent Christianity..... except the Salafists have a lot more money and resource behind them. Condemnation of an entire belief-system on the basis of the actions of a minority is a dangerous road.......
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 8:14 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Sorry - they survived - and some even prospered - at least as well as Jews prospered in Europe. Check the position of Jews under the various caliphates in Spain, set against their treatment by the Christian inquisition.

I am not claiming that either the rulers or the people were saints, or overly tolerant, but that minorities were not persecuted in the way that recent events might suggest. Saudi-backed Salafism over the last few decades has skewed the tolerance of "alternates" across the Muslim world and to equate this with "Islam" in general is to suggest that the snake-handlers represent Christianity..... except the Salafists have a lot more money and resource behind them. Condemnation of an entire belief-system on the basis of the actions of a minority is a dangerous road.......
Not too hot in Iran or Pakistan either, killing of Christians in Nigeria, Egypt well we can go on.

As Napoleon never said God supports the big battalions and a small number of pretty much any belief system can usually be ignored.

The US has described itself as a melting pot, more an absorption pot, now it is having issues because it is chocking.

So yes it is a numbers game and the head choppers are a minority but any percentage you care to apply to a large number becomes a large problem. As witnessed in Birmingham with the LGBQTI community and the near universal protest of the Parents, belief systems clash, they are not compatible.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 8:53 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Sorry - they survived - and some even prospered - at least as well as Jews prospered in Europe. Check the position of Jews under the various caliphates in Spain, set against their treatment by the Christian inquisition.

I am not claiming that either the rulers or the people were saints, or overly tolerant, but that minorities were not persecuted in the way that recent events might suggest. Saudi-backed Salafism over the last few decades has skewed the tolerance of "alternates" across the Muslim world and to equate this with "Islam" in general is to suggest that the snake-handlers represent Christianity..... except the Salafists have a lot more money and resource behind them. Condemnation of an entire belief-system on the basis of the actions of a minority is a dangerous road.......
So hundred of thousands, or millions of Jews in Europe, killed isn't so bad as long as the rest survived? That's an odd fact to support your argument.

Minority religions weren't only persecuted recently in the ME.


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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 8:59 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
So hundred of thousands, or millions of Jews in Europe, killed isn't so bad as long as the rest survived? That's an odd fact to support your argument.

Minority religions weren't only persecuted recently in the ME.
A lot more than that. If we start listing all these BE will run out of bandwidth.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:08 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Not too hot in Iran or Pakistan either, killing of Christians in Nigeria, Egypt well we can go on.

As Napoleon never said God supports the big battalions and a small number of pretty much any belief system can usually be ignored.

The US has described itself as a melting pot, more an absorption pot, now it is having issues because it is chocking.

So yes it is a numbers game and the head choppers are a minority but any percentage you care to apply to a large number becomes a large problem. As witnessed in Birmingham with the LGBQTI community and the near universal protest of the Parents, belief systems clash, they are not compatible.
Firstly, check your facts - Salafism has infected worldwide Sunni Islam due to the fact that new mosques are funded by the Saudis - that's why there has been an increase in the use of the hijab (a desert tribe form of modesty) amongst other Muslim countries where it was previously little used. Pakistan, Egypt and most Arab countries are majority Sunni and therefore fall within this group. Iran is Shi'ite and has its own issues, the theocratic leadership is hardly the ideal - but they re different to the Salafists - that's why there are proxy wars in Iraq, Syria and Yemen - it is an infra-Islamic struggle. The West pokes about in ignorance of the facts, fails to see the actual issues and usually makes things worse. The rest is a meaningless extension of your misunderstanding.

Last edited by macliam; Mar 22nd 2019 at 10:14 pm.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:11 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
So hundred of thousands, or millions of Jews in Europe, killed isn't so bad as long as the rest survived? That's an odd fact to support your argument.

Minority religions weren't only persecuted recently in the ME.
Do not attempt to misquote me - show me where I said that. I was replying to your suggestion that minorities "barely survived" in Islamic countries. Historically, that is just not true - although I would certainly accept that they were tolerated rather than celebrated. Can we say the same in Europe?

Last edited by macliam; Mar 22nd 2019 at 10:16 pm.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:14 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Firstly, check your facts - Salafism has infected worldwide Sunni Islam due to the fact that new mosques are funded by the Saudis - that's why there has been an increase in the use of the hijab (a desert tribe form of modesty) amongst Pakistan, Egypt and mist Arab countries are majority Sunni. Iran has its own issues and the theocratic leadership is hardly the best - but they re different to the Salasists - that's why there are proxy wars in Iraq, Syria and Yemen - it is an infra-Islamic struggle. The West pokes about in ignorance of the facts, fails to see the actual issues and usually makes things worse. The rest is a meaningless extension of your misunderstanding.
I am going to take that as sort of acknowledgement of the issue, which is a start, and for the purpose of this thread add Bangladesh.

So the news to day includes 10 Jihadis arrested in Germany whose plan was to kill as many people as possible and the Dutch elections - Anti-immigration populists surge in fragmented Dutch elections from the Graun.

Neither surprised me. It is the direction we are heading in.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:16 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Do not attempt to misquote me - show me where I said that. I was replying to your suggestion that minorities "barely survived" in Islamic countries. Historically, that is just not true.
Hmm, not sure there is any major Jewish community in any of them, and there was.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
I am going to take that as sort of acknowledgement of the issue, which is a start, and for the purpose of this thread add Bangladesh.

So the news to day includes 10 Jihadis arrested in Germany whose plan was to kill as many people as possible and the Dutch elections - Anti-immigration populists surge in fragmented Dutch elections from the Graun.

Neither surprised me. It is the direction we are heading in.
The "issue"?? The issue here is the British Home secretary revoking the citizenship of a 19 year-old woman.
If by "The issue" you are suggesting an issue with radical Islam, I agree - however, whereas you seem happy to spend your time attacking the twigs, I'd rather sort out the tree as a whole - and not from a position of "superiority", because there are genuine grievances that need to be addressed.
Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Hmm, not sure there is any major Jewish community in any of them, and there was.
The State of Israel has absorbed many of those who lived in neighbouring lands, particularly when tensions arising from the creation of Israel endangered them. Therefore, Jewish communities there now will be very, very small. However, Judaism survived in the Middle East and the Maghreb through centuries of Muslim domination as did the other faith communities - and the relative "size" of those communities would need to be assessed in terms of the total populations. As I said, tolerated rather than celebrated - but tolerated is a start. To assess reality, you need to understand what was and how it came to be what is.... not just react to the current situation.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 10:44 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Most people on here see no issue with her British Citizenship being revoked.

Having your head chopped off, being used as a sex slave, we can agree, a genuine grievance.

I agree survived is a good word, no doubt a factor in I forget the word the Jewish movement to other areas.
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Old Mar 22nd 2019, 11:11 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Do not attempt to misquote me - show me where I said that. I was replying to your suggestion that minorities "barely survived" in Islamic countries. Historically, that is just not true - although I would certainly accept that they were tolerated rather than celebrated. Can we say the same in Europe?
It came across like that. I said in some cases they barely survived.

It wasn't like they have been treated as equals the whole time, and they still aren't - in the 21st century.

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Old Mar 23rd 2019, 12:01 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
It came across like that. I said in some cases they barely survived.

It wasn't like they have been treated as equals the whole time, and they still aren't - in the 21st century.
My point is that, due to the influence of this fundamentalist Arabian branch of Sunni Islam, things are actually worse now than before. However, that being said, the influence of Israel and interventions by the West haven;t helped either. It's a perfect storm - and the Saudis appear to be riding it in order to spread their influence. Remember, this is a state which didn't exist 100 years ago, ruled by tribes who were regarded with disdain by the Ottomans......
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