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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 3:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by vinegarboy (Post 12658091)
What happened to the 400+ fighters who've been allowed re-entry to the UK, then? I didn't realise that any'd been allowed back. Were they allowed back because they're sans another citizenship? These people are scum & should be welded into cages for the rest of their natural lives. This woman willingly provided support & comfort to our enemy; an enemy which ruthlessly & barbarically beheaded or incinerated prisoners for video propaganda. They're monsters and totally unworthy of an ounce of sympathy, and so to Hell with them.

You seem to like the word "scum" and your views on how to treat your opponents seem very close to those of daesh..... pehaps you'd like to reconsider. The way in which a civilised people deal with those who transgress or disagree with them is what makes them different to the beasts. I have no truck with daesh, its philosophy or actions - but I will not descend to their level and provide cause for future conflict. If these people are found guilty of a crime, then they merit sanction - but not without due process. As to the case in point, it seems odd that Javid takes action against this young woman, but not against known fighters - and even more odd when Russia is actively repatriating the wives and children of daesh in order to deradicalise them.

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 3:42 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12658089)
I listed all the possible charges, some seem eminently applicable, you do not have to tick all the boxes. All theoretical, I actual hope the situation never arises.

The 400 plus who have been returned is deeply worrying, and no doubt the tip of the iceberg. There is a certain inevitability of the horrors ahead.

The other points have been responded to so best you review the thread,

Which of these proves that she constitutes a threat or danger to the UK?
Please point to the post that categorically proves she is not stateless as a result of Javid's action - best guesses don't cut it in law.

EMR Mar 22nd 2019 9:39 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12657887)
I believe her, what she said. What she did, who she supported.

So what do you'd think should have happened to the wives of known IRA, UVF etc terrorists in NI., communities where support for terrorists was part of daily life.

vinegarboy Mar 22nd 2019 12:20 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12658193)
So what do you'd think should have happened to the wives of known IRA, UVF etc terrorists in NI., communities where support for terrorists was part of daily life.

The wives/families/etc. of "terrorists" & rebels in the American Colonies circa 1776 are today called "patriots," whereas the British would've certainly hanged them as traitors if we'd won what's now called the War of Independence; in time, the same will happen when NI's history is written.

vinegarboy Mar 22nd 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658104)
You seem to like the word "scum" and your views on how to treat your opponents seem very close to those of daesh..... pehaps you'd like to reconsider. The way in which a civilised people deal with those who transgress or disagree with them is what makes them different to the beasts. I have no truck with daesh, its philosophy or actions - but I will not descend to their level and provide cause for future conflict. If these people are found guilty of a crime, then they merit sanction - but not without due process. As to the case in point, it seems odd that Javid takes action against this young woman, but not against known fighters - and even more odd when Russia is actively repatriating the wives and children of daesh in order to deradicalise them.

"Deradicalisation" is a great word, but it won't change a single word in their holy book, ever. And Russia is more than capable of gulagging/disappearing anybody who transgresses. I wouldn't understand if Javid doesn't have returned fighters interned indefinitely. And scum are scum, you know it when you see it; I don't support the death penalty, but I'd have no qualms whatsoever in welding the effers into cages to live out the rest of their lives in.

BristolUK Mar 22nd 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658088)
....."handling a salmon in suspicious circumstances", or "Beating or shaking a carpet or rug in the street"? ..

Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing...urinating in a public convenience...coughing without due care and attention...looking at me in a funny way...walking on the cracks in the pavement...walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area...during the hours of darkness


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...52763e8e1b.jpg



vinegarboy Mar 22nd 2019 12:47 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12658288)
Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing...urinating in a public convenience...coughing without due care and attention...looking at me in a funny way...walking on the cracks in the pavement...walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area...during the hours of darkness


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...52763e8e1b.jpg

Hehe, great post Bristol. It'll get even crazier once the authorities are able to read one's mind...

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 3:22 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by vinegarboy (Post 12658281)
"Deradicalisation" is a great word, but it won't change a single word in their holy book, ever. And Russia is more than capable of gulagging/disappearing anybody who transgresses. I wouldn't understand if Javid doesn't have returned fighters interned indefinitely. And scum are scum, you know it when you see it; I don't support the death penalty, but I'd have no qualms whatsoever in welding the effers into cages to live out the rest of their lives in.

AFTER due process, i'd hope - that's the point here. As to the words of their holy book, Islam coexisted with other religions for centuries (hence the existence of Copts, Yazidis and middle-eastern Jews, etc., etc.) and the book is little different to any other - in fact it was previously interpreted to advise tolerance of "the people of the book", i.e. Jews and Christians, who share the same basic Abrahamic scripture. None of this has any affect on daesh, as Islam also forbids the killing of another Muslim - it is "haram". So daesh decide that Shia are NOT Muslim and kill them at leisure. The Taliban similarly interpreted the words to justify their abuse of Islam. People have suggested that Das Kapital was responsible for the Stalinist purges too........
As for Russia, I hear what you say and raise you Guantanamo - two wrongs don't make a right.

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 3:27 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12658288)
Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing...urinating in a public convenience...coughing without due care and attention...looking at me in a funny way...walking on the cracks in the pavement...walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area...during the hours of darkness


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...52763e8e1b.jpg

Winston Kodogo was going through my mind .... "possession of curly black hair and thick lips...."
But the charges I added actually exist on the statute book! :eek:

Boiler Mar 22nd 2019 3:34 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658422)
AFTER due process, i'd hope - that's the point here. As to the words of their holy book, Islam coexisted with other religions for centuries (hence the existence of Copts, Yazidis and middle-eastern Jews, etc., etc.) and the book is little different to any other - in fact it was previously interpreted to advise tolerance of "the people of the book", i.e. Jews and Christians, who share the same basic Abrahamic scripture. None of this has any affect on daesh, as Islam also forbids the killing of another Muslim - it is "haram". So daesh decide that Shia are NOT Muslim and kill them at leisure. The Taliban similarly interpreted the words to justify their abuse of Islam. People have suggested that Das Kapital was responsible for the Stalinist purges too........
As for Russia, I hear what you say and raise you Guantanamo - two wrongs don't make a right.

Islam is a religion of conquest, as a non Muslim you can convert be a subject or the other one more favoured by Shamima and her buddies I guess being a subject is relatively tolerant compared to the others.




macliam Mar 22nd 2019 3:57 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12658432)
Islam is a religion of conquest, as a non Muslim you can convert be a subject or the other one more favoured by Shamima and her buddies I guess being a subject is relatively tolerant compared to the others.

Odd then, that after centuries, the Yazidis and other minority non-Muslim religions still exist. Odd that many of the early leaders of Israel came from families who had lived within a primarily Islamic culture within an Islamic empire for centuries. I worked with an Iraqi jew who only left his native land due to opposition to Sadaam Hussein.

The Bible doesn't hold back much either - and the Crusaders may have worn a cross, but they did their fair share of conquest, pillage, rape and murder too. Should we all go back there? After all, one of the first crusades was within Europe and saw the Cathars persecuted for defying the church - the fact that it also destroyed Occitania and brought new territory under the French crown notwithstanding, it was just an early example of political gain under a religious "jihad". How much more civilised we are now......

But again, there is no evidence that Shamima led or took any active part in any such matters, so it is pure conjecture to attribute blame.

EMR Mar 22nd 2019 4:07 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12658432)
Islam is a religion of conquest, as a non Muslim you can convert be a subject or the other one more favoured by Shamima and her buddies I guess being a subject is relatively tolerant compared to the others.

Tell that to the victims of anti Muslim genocide in Myanmar or Bosnia..
Who were they trying to conquer..

Boiler Mar 22nd 2019 4:11 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12658458)
Odd then, that after centuries, the Yazidis and other minority non-Muslim religions still exist. Odd that many of the early leaders of Israel came from families who had lived within a primarily Islamic culture within and iIslamic empire for centuries. I worked with an Iraqi jew who only left his native land due to opposition to Sadaam Hussein.

The Bible doesn't hold back much either - and the Crusaders may have worn a cross, but they did their fair share of conquest, pillage, rape and murder too. Should we all go back there? After all, one of the first crusades was within Europe and saw the Cathars persecuted for defying the church - the fact that it also destroyed Occitania and brought new territory under the French crown notwithstanding, it was just an early example of political gain under a religious "jihad". How much more civilised we are now......

But again, there is no evidence that Shamima led or took any active part in any such matters, so it is pure conjecture to attribute blame.

Difference is most Christians I know now fall into the Birth Death and Marriage category, and Christianity went through a Reformation.

Just listen to what she said, and yet again review the law, no need to find that she was head chopping herself.

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 4:30 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12658467)
Difference is most Christians I know now fall into the Birth Death and Marriage category, and Christianity went through a Reformation.

Just listen to what she said, and yet again review the law, no need to find that she was head chopping herself.

Yes, Lucky the Jews and Romans didn't have the power to annihilate the Christians back in the day, eh? Better now to sit on a high hill and look at everyone else as "wrong", as the Jews have done for centuries.
To me, I don't much care whether you have religion or none or which colour - and the days of me pushing the paper heathens up the printed ladder to heaven are long gone (any papists out there will understand that reference). Do you forget what was done to Jews, Jehovas Witnesses and Gypsies just 80 years ago? Have you never seen those pictures from WW2 where US troops used Japanese skulls as ashtrays? One more "example", my BiL served in Egypt before Suez - he was advised that if he hit an Arab child with his jeep, he should make sure it was dead as the "blood money" would be cheaper than medical treatment. That's some high horse you have there.......

macliam Mar 22nd 2019 4:40 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12658467)
Difference is most Christians I know now fall into the Birth Death and Marriage category, and Christianity went through a Reformation.

Just listen to what she said, and yet again review the law, no need to find that she was head chopping herself.

Maybe, just maybe, being Irish I know just how toxic and divisive religion can be.
Maybe, just maybe, my time with the Jesuits showed me how easily a mindset can be established (Lucky i got away to the relative safety of the brothers PDQ!!)
Maybe, just maybe, I've seen the hatred that a different belief in the colour of the sky-fairy's underpants can cause - and still causes (Ask Sultan).
Maybe, just maybe, I'd rather not be the persecutor.
You may have other ideas, but mine are not based on legalities or book-learning - mine are gut-realities formed during a lifetime in the shadow of "the troubles" - not even a teenager when it started, but already "primed" for my part.


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