British Expats

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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 11:05 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12640134)
He's not really a 'bloke in an office' he's a minister of state, acting on behalf of the government. He and the government must account for their actions. It's a decision, and not an arbitrary one. The judicial process will determine whether he had authority or not. I would say you are over-thinking it.

That's often the case. But ministers of the state are blokes ( or women) in offices. They aren't special and their powers should be limited by the rule of law without having to wait for an election.

But I am glad that his decision will be reviewed by the courts, if that is the case.

Nutek Feb 20th 2019 11:12 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I like her being just where she is.

All that's needed now is for everyone to completely forget about her and leave her to scrape out whatever kind of shitty existence she can in what I hope is a miserable, bleak, unrelentingly crap life.

spouse of scouse Feb 20th 2019 11:12 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640129)
Well this is awkward - there is a good point here, which I also mentioned upthread.

As repugnant as this young woman's words and actions are, and as much as she in herself probably provides no value to the UK at all or anyone else very much, and as much as it's natural and understandable to want to keep her out (a feeling that I share at the personal level), I do worry about a minister, a functionary of the state, being able to remove someone's citizenship in absentia, at the stroke of a pen, no investigation and no due process at all. Just some bloke in an office.

This is not about any perceived injustice to her personally - I can't muster up any sympathy - but as a process, the ability of a government functionary to remove citizenship in this way strikes me as undesirable. I'm sure we can all imagine - and even recognize from not-too-distant history - situations where such powers have been appallingly misused.

I'll duck and cover now... :)

I think the point that removing someone's citizenship without any investigation/due process creates an undesirable precedent is a good one. Although it could be argued that the available facts (joining a terrorist organisation, supporting a terrorist organisation, retaining a terrorist ideology), if they'd been uncovered as the result of an investigation, would be considered sufficient evidence to remove a dual citizen's UK citizenship.




Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 11:19 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12640146)
I think the point that removing someone's citizenship without any investigation/due process creates an undesirable precedent is a good one. Although it could be argued that the available facts (joining a terrorist organisation, supporting a terrorist organisation, retaining a terrorist ideology), if they'd been uncovered as the result of an investigation, would be considered sufficient evidence to remove a dual citizen's UK citizenship.

I agree - if evidence is offered, in a place where evidence is offered under the rule of law and where justice can be seen to be done. Not in some government functionary's office and because they want to.

If it happens next to someone we agree with, or who we think is worthy of UK ctizenship, what recourse will there be?

spouse of scouse Feb 20th 2019 11:26 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640148)
I agree - if evidence is offered, in a place where evidence is offered under the rule of law and where justice can be seen to be done. Not in some government functionary's office and because they want to.

I get what you're saying. I guess the Begum family's lawyer's challenge to the decision will give the UK government the opportunity to present that evidence, and the defence an opportunity to refute/mitigate it.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 11:33 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12640150)
I get what you're saying. I guess the Begum family's lawyer's challenge to the decision will give the UK government the opportunity to present that evidence, and the defence an opportunity to refute/mitigate it.

Yes. I think Javid took a bold, if highly politicised decision. We have weigh over-stepping ministerial authority with the signalling effect, and potentially with national security concerns. There are a few hundred returnees and it's important for the government to determine its authority and precedent on this issue as soon as possible.

materialcontroller Feb 20th 2019 11:41 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640148)
I agree - if evidence is offered, in a place where evidence is offered under the rule of law and where justice can be seen to be done. Not in some government functionary's office and because they want to.

If it happens next to someone we agree with, or who we think is worthy of UK ctizenship, what recourse will there be?

You really have a problem with authority, don't you?

chawkins99 Feb 20th 2019 11:48 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12640146)
I think the point that removing someone's citizenship without any investigation/due process creates an undesirable precedent is a good one. Although it could be argued that the available facts (joining a terrorist organisation, supporting a terrorist organisation, retaining a terrorist ideology), if they'd been uncovered as the result of an investigation, would be considered sufficient evidence to remove a dual citizen's UK citizenship.

I agree with the sentiment, but how do you know there was no investigation?
I don't, for one second, believe that a government minister read the headline in the daily rag and decided unilaterally to revoke her citizenship based on that.

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 11:49 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12640158)
You really have a problem with authority, don't you?

That's a bit of a silly comment in an otherwise sensible discussion. Why does every thread in TIO have to be turned into a children's playground fight?

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 11:51 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12640155)
Yes. I think Javid took a bold, if highly politicised decision. We have weigh over-stepping ministerial authority with the signalling effect, and potentially with national security concerns. There are a few hundred returnees and it's important for the government to determine its authority and precedent on this issue as soon as possible.

Agreed. This one case is a drop in the bucket. Who will be tried, and who will just be decided upon by the government? It isn't simple at all.

materialcontroller Feb 20th 2019 11:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640163)
That's a bit of a silly comment in an otherwise sensible discussion. Why does every thread in TIO have to be turned into a children's playground fight?

Sorry, I realise that it might have been somewhat of a flippant comment, but given your post history and views (which are rather well known by now), I wouldn't class it as silly.

spouse of scouse Feb 20th 2019 11:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12640162)
I agree with the sentiment, but how do you know there was no investigation?
I don't, for one second, believe that a government minister read the headline in the daily rag and decided unilaterally to revoke her citizenship based on that.

I don't know that there was no investigation, that wasn't what I was saying (or at least, it wasn't what I meant to say!).

chawkins99 Feb 20th 2019 11:59 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12640166)
I don't know that there was no investigation, that wasn't what I was saying (or at least, it wasn't what I meant to say!).

Blame multi-quote no-worky.

It wasn't specifically directed at you but at several posts that seem to hint that it was a purely political knee-jerk reaction by the home office without any in-depth investigation.

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12640165)
Sorry, I realise that it might have been somewhat of a flippant comment, but given your post history and views (which are rather well known by now), I wouldn't class it as silly.

If you are asking whether I think the power of the state should be transparently limited by the rule of law, then the answer is yes.


BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640164)
Agreed. This one case is a drop in the bucket. Who will be tried, and who will just be decided upon by the government? It isn't simple at all.

Over 100 have already been stripped over the last few years; we’re just talking about this one. The legislation and precedent are long established.


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