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Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Old Mar 10th 2019, 3:52 am
  #631  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Much approbrium and vilification has been expressed here. But rather than target this pathetic individual, why not criticise the salafist sunni doctrine being spread around the world in Saudi-funded mosques, because this is the basis for Al Qaeda, the Taliban and daesh.

Like Christianity, Islam has many branches and sub-branches, many interpretations of the writings, many traditions - but it is the salafists who seek to turn the clock back and impose their "pure" form of Islam on the world and they have been supported by the House of Saud since they helped it gain control of Arabia. This is the doctrine that embraces jihad and teaches its followers to regard anyone who does not follow the same interpretation of the Quran as infidel and lower than a dog, be they Muslims or anyone else. This is the doctrine that justifies the killing and enslavement of those who are not "pure". This is the doctrine that provides imaginative ways to terrorise a population.

But instead of focusing on this and seeking to cut off the source of this bile, we are told that the shi'ites and Iran are the danger and we excuse the Saudi airforce for bombing shi'ites in Yemen back to the stone age. I don't excuse the shi'ites here, they are no innocents, but it was not them who attacked the west - it was Saudi-backed sunni. I do not dismiss the danger of a cleric-led theocratic state in Iran, but any adventures beyond their borders have, as yet, been regional and limited. However, the proxy war against Iran in Yemen is just one aspect of increasing Saudi dominance of the Middle-East. The destabilization of Iraq and Syria has already removed two great regional rivals and other states are either dependent on Saudi favours or basket-cases like Lebanon. The recent murder of Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey is an example of their disdain for the rule of law - so the daesh caliphate was as nothing compared to the danger posed by a rich and powerful Saudi Arabia.

Direct or indirect saudi funding of mosques has seen them control the vast majority of new mosques across the world. The teachings of these mosques has led Punjabi Muslims in the UK to set aside their traditional interpretation of Islam, their dress, their traditions and embrace the traditions of the desert wanderers in Arabia. Over time the interpretation of the Quran and the teachings are becoming homogenized around this one branch of the faith. It is as if redneck snake-handlers came to dominate the Christian world.... backed by huge resource and influence. However, it is this branch of Islam that appeals to followers from all over the world, attracted by it's claim to "Ummah" and rejection of the "corrupt" influences of the West. Finding a way to contain this threat is far more important than vengeance against one misguided follower.....
Except it's not just one misguided follower is it? You said it yourself 400 former ISIS fighters have previously been allowed to return. That's no longer a pathetic misguided individual, that's a network of lunatics potentially ready to take a machete to British soldiers in the street or blow themselves up at a teen concert. From one small acorn the mighty oak doth grow old son, time to stop planting them.

Last edited by stevenglish1; Mar 10th 2019 at 4:03 am.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 3:53 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Much approbrium and vilification has been expressed here. But rather than target this pathetic individual, why not criticise the salafist sunni doctrine being spread around the world in Saudi-funded mosques, because this is the basis for Al Qaeda, the Taliban and daesh.

Like Christianity, Islam has many branches and sub-branches, many interpretations of the writings, many traditions - but it is the salafists who seek to turn the clock back and impose their "pure" form of Islam on the world and they have been supported by the House of Saud since they helped it gain control of Arabia. This is the doctrine that embraces jihad and teaches its followers to regard anyone who does not follow the same interpretation of the Quran as infidel and lower than a dog, be they Muslims or anyone else. This is the doctrine that justifies the killing and enslavement of those who are not "pure". This is the doctrine that provides imaginative ways to terrorise a population.

But instead of focusing on this and seeking to cut off the source of this bile, we are told that the shi'ites and Iran are the danger and we excuse the Saudi airforce for bombing shi'ites in Yemen back to the stone age. I don't excuse the shi'ites here, they are no innocents, but it was not them who attacked the west - it was Saudi-backed sunni. I do not dismiss the danger of a cleric-led theocratic state in Iran, but any adventures beyond their borders have, as yet, been regional and limited. However, the proxy war against Iran in Yemen is just one aspect of increasing Saudi dominance of the Middle-East. The destabilization of Iraq and Syria has already removed two great regional rivals and other states are either dependent on Saudi favours or basket-cases like Lebanon. The recent murder of Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey is an example of their disdain for the rule of law - so the daesh caliphate was as nothing compared to the danger posed by a rich and powerful Saudi Arabia.

Direct or indirect saudi funding of mosques has seen them control the vast majority of new mosques across the world. The teachings of these mosques has led Punjabi Muslims in the UK to set aside their traditional interpretation of Islam, their dress, their traditions and embrace the traditions of the desert wanderers in Arabia. Over time the interpretation of the Quran and the teachings are becoming homogenized around this one branch of the faith. It is as if redneck snake-handlers came to dominate the Christian world.... backed by huge resource and influence. However, it is this branch of Islam that appeals to followers from all over the world, attracted by it's claim to "Ummah" and rejection of the "corrupt" influences of the West. Finding a way to contain this threat is far more important than vengeance against one misguided follower.....

Backed, as I expect you know, by huge arms sales from the UK (and a few other countries also). For a long time now. That's British weaponry that's been used on the Yemeni and on the Kurds.

On the subject of children, I was reading earlier about how, with the end of daesh-controlled territory, there are now hundreds of children who know nothing else and who are now plunged into even further misery in the camps. What is to be done wtih them? They know nothing of any even vaguely normal society. What will they grow up to be and to foment if they are not helped?
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 10:12 am
  #633  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Except it's not just one misguided follower is it? You said it yourself 400 former ISIS fighters have previously been allowed to return. That's no longer a pathetic misguided individual, that's a network of lunatics potentially ready to take a machete to British soldiers in the street or blow themselves up at a teen concert. From one small acorn the mighty oak doth grow old son, time to stop planting them.
Either you're thick or you're deliberately avoiding the truth "old son". Persecuting this woman will not prevent the others from acting and It's not those who have been identified that are the problem, as they can be monitored - it's those who would follow them. If the security forces had known enough about the 400 fighters - and the rest - it would have been something, but they still managed to slip the net. Meanwhile all those who recruited, groomed and funded them are still out there, as are the future cannon fodder - so you are just closing your eyes to the problem. You are not tackling an acorn, you are attacking one leaf on an oak tree that has already grown. But I suspect the truth is that you can't see beyond the immediate and preventing this woman from returning to the UK is just a convenient way to "lock her up and throw away the key" or execute her by proxy. Because, when you see a truck coming towards you, the best thing to do is to shut your eyes, yes?
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Backed, as I expect you know, by huge arms sales from the UK (and a few other countries also). For a long time now. That's British weaponry that's been used on the Yemeni and on the Kurds.

On the subject of children, I was reading earlier about how, with the end of daesh-controlled territory, there are now hundreds of children who know nothing else and who are now plunged into even further misery in the camps. What is to be done wtih them? They know nothing of any even vaguely normal society. What will they grow up to be and to foment if they are not helped?
Yes, the UK are guilty of supporting the Saudis - but then, the UK put them into power to fight the Turks, just as the US armed and trained jihadis to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. The west is not responsible for the salafi doctrine, but it has chosen to ignore it or use it for immediate gain - that is how it has become powerful.

With regard to the children, like the women, the intention seems to be to leave them to rot - because that's sure to work out well, eh?

Last edited by macliam; Mar 10th 2019 at 10:21 am.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 10:58 am
  #634  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

More good news coming out of this Tory government. Not enough to make me want to vote for them, but still very welcome.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47512659
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:31 am
  #635  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Either you're thick or you're deliberately avoiding the truth "old son". Persecuting this woman will not prevent the others from acting and It's not those who have been identified that are the problem, as they can be monitored - it's those who would follow them. If the security forces had known enough about the 400 fighters - and the rest - it would have been something, but they still managed to slip the net. Meanwhile all those who recruited, groomed and funded them are still out there, as are the future cannon fodder - so you are just closing your eyes to the problem. You are not tackling an acorn, you are attacking one leaf on an oak tree that has already grown. But I suspect the truth is that you can't see beyond the immediate and preventing this woman from returning to the UK is just a convenient way to "lock her up and throw away the key" or execute her by proxy. Because, when you see a truck coming towards you, the best thing to do is to shut your eyes, yes?
If you want to get abusive then bring it on, I have some real doozies lined up for someone like you.

This monitoring lark you're a fan of, d'you think Lee Rigby's mum is a fan, considering her boy's murderers were known to security services? Or what about Salman Ramadan Abedi? He was known to security services but deemed low risk. D'you reckon the parents of the 22 dead from the Manchester arena bombings are fans of your 'monitoring' ? You sound like a pathetic apologist.


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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:34 am
  #636  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
More good news coming out of this Tory government. Not enough to make me want to vote for them, but still very welcome.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47512659
Excellent news, about time the British government started appeasing its own people instead of everyone else. I feel for the kids, but it's their mothers causing their suffering and no-one else.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:40 am
  #637  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Excellent news, about time the British government started appeasing its own people instead of everyone else. I feel for the kids, but it's their mothers causing their suffering and no-one else.
But where is the offer to take the children to a place of safety ?
Why should they pay for the crimes of their parents.
leaving them there means 5 more potential recruits for Isis.
You would be the first to rant if in a few years one of them was found to be behind attacks in the UK. ( not that you are in the UK ).
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:45 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

I wonder about the practical details of a short notice removal from Syria to the UK - a military led extraction, routeing Levant - Akrotiri - Northolt? That would play well with taxpayers, etc.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:53 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
I wonder about the practical details of a short notice removal from Syria to the UK - a military led extraction, routeing Levant - Akrotiri - Northolt? That would play well with taxpayers, etc.
The UK base in Cyprus is fully equipped ,no need to return anyone to the UK.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 11:57 am
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
The UK base in Cyprus is fully equipped ,no need to return anyone to the UK.
What are you talking about? Akrotiri would be the logical staging post for Ms Begum's return to the UK.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 12:03 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
What are you talking about? Akrotiri would be the logical staging post for Ms Begum's return to the UK.
During the many discussions regarding Begum and others the base in Cyprus was proposed as a "secure holding place, for debriefing etc"., it has a hospital, schools etc for the children. .
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 12:05 pm
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
During the many discussions regarding Begum and others the base in Cyprus was proposed as a "secure holding place, for debriefing etc"., it has a hospital, schools etc for the children. .
Which is not what I was talking about. I was referring to her return (in short order) to the UK, as proposed by many including Diane Abbot.

Do try & keep up!
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 12:36 pm
  #643  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

What I don't understand is why we should show mercy to IS wives. They supported a murderous genocidal system that enslaved, raped and killed on mass. These wives should be called what they are IS supportes and members. Without them IS wouldn't have worked. They were slave holders and masters. They cannot hide behind their motherhood. They are guilty as much as German Nazis wifes were guilty. There's no way you can return them to the comforts of Western states and let them raise their kids in peace. They belong punished just as much as their husbands.

Yazidi women endured years of Islamic slavery
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 12:45 pm
  #644  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Originally Posted by Assanah View Post
What I don't understand is why we should show mercy to IS wives. They supported a murderous genocidal system that enslaved, raped and killed on mass. These wives should be called what they are IS supportes and members. Without them IS wouldn't have worked. They were slave holders and masters. They cannot hide behind their motherhood. They are guilty as much as German Nazis wifes were guilty. There's no way you can return them to the comforts of Western states and let them raise their kids in peace. They belong punished just as much as their husbands.

Yazidi women endured years of Islamic slavery
Quite so. Although in the case of a 15 year old, there's a question of capacity.
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Old Mar 10th 2019, 1:09 pm
  #645  
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Default Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

We are allowed to have our views on this be it in support of bringing her back to the UK or leaving her where she is or finding another place for her along with others. She is not the 1st to be stripped of her citizenship either. Innocent or guilty well thats a debate as well but we have a Government who were democratically elected who act on our behalf. Now you could always have a Referendum with the question of Should we bring her back to the UK or not. What could possibly go wrong with that? I tend to suspect that the answer would be an overwhelming vote not to bring her back. Let the courts decide her situation.
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