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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

macliam Mar 8th 2019 11:14 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12650403)
ISIS along with Begum and her 'husband' condemned this child - no one else. To suggest that anyone would be 'satisfied' with the death of a baby does you no credit.

I disagree. I know what I'm reading - the mere fact that this one child's fate is headline news confirms it. Perhaps time would be better spent considering what could convince a 15 year-old girl to leave her family and travel halfway around the world to live in such circumstances. She is now a 19 year-old who has lost three children and whose own fate is uncertain - whilst 400 daesh fighters have been quietly allowed back into Britain. So now convince me she isn't the target for "vengeance".

spouse of scouse Mar 9th 2019 2:08 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650409)
I disagree. I know what I'm reading - the mere fact that this one child's fate is headline news confirms it. Perhaps time would be better spent considering what could convince a 15 year-old girl to leave her family and travel halfway around the world to live in such circumstances. She is now a 19 year-old who has lost three children and whose own fate is uncertain - whilst 400 daesh fighters have been quietly allowed back into Britain. So now convince me she isn't the target for "vengeance".

Why would I spend my time trying to convince you of something you don't believe? The opinions of BE members are not my circus, not my monkeys. I've said my piece, along with you and everyone else. Thanks for the tip on how best to spend my time, right now it's going to be with a cuppa and a slice of Mum's freshly baked apple pie :)

Shard Mar 9th 2019 7:07 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12650433)
, right now it's going to be with a cuppa and a slice of Mum's freshly baked apple pie :)

Sounds good, don't forget two scoops of Madagascar vanilla ice cream.

EMR Mar 9th 2019 8:20 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12650347)
It is the mother that refused to send her child to safety. Not the UK. This baby is/was a British Citizen and so could have been removed to relative safety, the paperwork put in place and then placed with the grandparents or extended family.
Most all parents would put their children's best interests first. One might have thought this person would have taken up any chance to get her child out of the camp. Something denied really to the many innocent refugees & their families in these camps. For whatever her reason was, she did not.

Thousands of refugees, like her and her child have been arriving at the camps., the majority of new arrivals have come from previously Isis controlled areas.
There is little food, heating, medical care.
Where do you suggest she could have gone.
BBC news reports that she had to be taken under armed escort to the clinic where her child died..
You, none of us, have no idea what is happening, that she refused to send he days old child to safety in fact could have done .
Where is the confirmation from the UK home office that sanctuary would have been given to the child..

iano Mar 9th 2019 10:21 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650224)
......If the reports ARE true.....

Always thought it strange that whenever Ms Begum (i had a schoolmate called Begum!) was interviewed recently, the child was never visible, always under wraps. There may be religious reasons for this that I'm not aware of, but it did seem weird at the time.

Yours sceptically.

EMR Mar 9th 2019 10:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by iano (Post 12650569)
Always thought it strange that whenever Ms Begum (i had a schoolmate called Begum!) was interviewed recently, the child was never visible, always under wraps. There may be religious reasons for this that I'm not aware of, but it did seem weird at the time.

Yours sceptically.


Pictures of her with the child, BBC reporter who saw the child with the mother..

macliam Mar 9th 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by iano (Post 12650569)
Always thought it strange that whenever Ms Begum (i had a schoolmate called Begum!) was interviewed recently, the child was never visible, always under wraps. There may be religious reasons for this that I'm not aware of, but it did seem weird at the time.

Yours sceptically.

"Begum is a Muslim honorific title for, or means of addressing, a respectable lady. It did not originally develop as a surname, but over time has been adopted as a last name by many unmarried women, especially in Bangladesh and Pakistan.
Begum is quickly becoming a fairly common surname in America and England. A frequency map created by James Cheshire in 2012 puts Begum as the most popular surname in London's Tower Hamlets and south Camden neighborhoods.
" https://www.thoughtco.com/begum-surn...origin-1422458
It is common to see babies fully covered in the Middle East, Swaddling is an ancient practice of snugly wrapping a baby in a thin blanket or sheet to protect them from fly-strike, to help them feel more settled and to help them sleep.

So, nothing strange there - or are you suggesting the child didn't exist or wasn't alive? Next.

Boiler Mar 9th 2019 12:35 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I tend to take the Occam's Razor approach

She was heavily pregnant

Live birth reasonable

High mortality rate among newly born also likely

iano Mar 9th 2019 7:22 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650639)
So, nothing strange there - or are you suggesting the child didn't exist or wasn't alive? Next.

Yes, I was suggesting that it might have been a phantom pregnancy with the objective of gaining a sympathetic return ticket. Since seen a pic of the babe, RIP.

Appreciate your research of the topic.

stevenglish1 Mar 9th 2019 7:41 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650408)
We'll agree to differ - but I struggle to see the moral difference between your attitude and that attributed to the mother. The main difference seems to be that she actually put her own life on the line too - whereas you post and pass judgement from the safety of your computer.

Moral difference?? How about the actual difference, which is that I didn't run off to join a terrorist organisation that delights in beheading innocent people. Strangely enough that choice has also afforded me the relative safety from which I can post. It sounds like you admire her.

macliam Mar 9th 2019 9:24 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 12650818)
Moral difference?? How about the actual difference, which is that I didn't run off to join a terrorist organisation that delights in beheading innocent people. Strangely enough that choice has also afforded me the relative safety from which I can post. It sounds like you admire her.

Nope - but unlike you, I don't rush to judgement based on the limited information we have. Her husband says she kept house and looked after the children, how does that equate to joining a terrorist organization? If there is any evidence that she did more, then she should be prosecuted - because that's how the law works here. However, armchair vigilantes can call for blood without changing radio station.

8 girls from her school either went to Syria, or were caught trying to do so. All educated in the UK. I am more interested in preventing such occurrences in the future than pinning the blame for all the evils of daesh on one person who happens to be in the spotlight.... If the authorities have seen fit to allow over 400 daesh fighters back into the UK, I question why they are taking such a hard stance in this case..... because it smacks of populism to me, that they are trying to appear "strong" to people like you.

chawkins99 Mar 9th 2019 10:37 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650853)
...and looked after the children,

Not very well, apparently.

macliam Mar 9th 2019 11:47 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12650881)
Not very well, apparently.

Cheap comment.
Her first son was eight months old when he died at the end of 2018. He was ill, undernourished and there was no medical care available.
Her daughter was 21 months old when she died earlier this year in the last daesh-controlled enclave.
He second son died in a refugee camp where the International red cross says at least 100 people, overwhelmingly children, have died. Two thirds of the deaths were babies and infants under five years old.
I don't know of she carried out or witnessed executions, she says not. However I am sure that she can't perform miracles.

stevenglish1 Mar 10th 2019 12:15 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12650853)
Nope - but unlike you, I don't rush to judgement based on the limited information we have. Her husband says she kept house and looked after the children, how does that equate to joining a terrorist organization? If there is any evidence that she did more, then she should be prosecuted - because that's how the law works here. However, armchair vigilantes can call for blood without changing radio station.

8 girls from her school either went to Syria, or were caught trying to do so. All educated in the UK. I am more interested in preventing such occurrences in the future than pinning the blame for all the evils of daesh on one person who happens to be in the spotlight.... If the authorities have seen fit to allow over 400 daesh fighters back into the UK, I question why they are taking such a hard stance in this case..... because it smacks of populism to me, that they are trying to appear "strong" to people like you.

She ran off to join ISIS, no further information needed, that choice has at the very least cost the lives of 3 babes. The way you word things indicates that you feel somehow superior to anyone who feels otherwise to you, and that's simply not true.

Those 400 should never have been allowed back in in the first place, and I agree this does smack of populism somewhat but what is wrong with that, about time they appeased the British public for a change, and let's be honest here what better than a Muslim depriving another Muslim of her citizenship to show the country that not all Muslims are just all members of the same club eh?

macliam Mar 10th 2019 12:43 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Much approbrium and vilification has been expressed here. But rather than target this pathetic individual, why not criticise the salafist sunni doctrine being spread around the world in Saudi-funded mosques, because this is the basis for Al Qaeda, the Taliban and daesh.

Like Christianity, Islam has many branches and sub-branches, many interpretations of the writings, many traditions - but it is the salafists who seek to turn the clock back and impose their "pure" form of Islam on the world and they have been supported by the House of Saud since they helped it gain control of Arabia. This is the doctrine that embraces jihad and teaches its followers to regard anyone who does not follow the same interpretation of the Quran as infidel and lower than a dog, be they Muslims or anyone else. This is the doctrine that justifies the killing and enslavement of those who are not "pure". This is the doctrine that provides imaginative ways to terrorise a population.

But instead of focusing on this and seeking to cut off the source of this bile, we are told that the shi'ites and Iran are the danger and we excuse the Saudi airforce for bombing shi'ites in Yemen back to the stone age. I don't excuse the shi'ites here, they are no innocents, but it was not them who attacked the west - it was Saudi-backed sunni. I do not dismiss the danger of a cleric-led theocratic state in Iran, but any adventures beyond their borders have, as yet, been regional and limited. However, the proxy war against Iran in Yemen is just one aspect of increasing Saudi dominance of the Middle-East. The destabilization of Iraq and Syria has already removed two great regional rivals and other states are either dependent on Saudi favours or basket-cases like Lebanon. The recent murder of Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey is an example of their disdain for the rule of law - so the daesh caliphate was as nothing compared to the danger posed by a rich and powerful Saudi Arabia.

Direct or indirect saudi funding of mosques has seen them control the vast majority of new mosques across the world. The teachings of these mosques has led Punjabi Muslims in the UK to set aside their traditional interpretation of Islam, their dress, their traditions and embrace the traditions of the desert wanderers in Arabia. Over time the interpretation of the Quran and the teachings are becoming homogenized around this one branch of the faith. It is as if redneck snake-handlers came to dominate the Christian world.... backed by huge resource and influence. However, it is this branch of Islam that appeals to followers from all over the world, attracted by it's claim to "Ummah" and rejection of the "corrupt" influences of the West. Finding a way to contain this threat is far more important than vengeance against one misguided follower.....


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