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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

BritInParis Feb 25th 2019 12:54 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12643213)
Would that it was as clear as you claim - I quote the Dhaka Tribune

An unbiased and authoriative legal source I'm sure.


"Citizenship in Bangladesh is governed by the following laws: Citizenship Act, 1951; Citizenship Rules, 1952; Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Order 1972; and Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Rules 1978.

The provisions of the 1951 Act and the 1952 Rules are to be read together with the 1972 Order, and the 1978 Rules to get a complete picture of the laws of citizenship in Bangladesh. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the 1951 Act and the 1952 Rules, but the issued is dealt with in the 1972 Order and the 1978 Rules.
Incorrect. It's covered by Article 14 of the 1951 Act, but let's continue.


The 1972 Order refers to the power of the Government to “grant” citizenship upon an application. Article 3 of the 1972 Order states that, in case of doubt as to whether a person is qualified to be deemed to be a citizen of Bangladesh under Article 2 (which would be applicable for dual citizens) the question shall be decided by the government, which decision shall be final. Article 4 of the 1972 Order state that the “government may, upon an application made to it in this behalf in the manner prescribed, grant citizenship to any person.”
Being a dual citizen does not raise doubt as to whether someone is a Bangladeshi citizen. There is no doubt as to whether Begum is a citizen as her citizenship by descent is provided for by Article 5 of the 1951 Act and her place of birth, parentage and the citizenship status of her parents at the time of her birth are not in question.

Article 4 simply permits the government to grant Bangladeshi citizenship on anyone who applies for it in a prescribed manner, e.g. meets the requirements for naturalisation.


Rule 3 of the 1978 Rules requires an application to be made seeking Bangladeshi citizenship under clause 2 of Article 2B of the 1972 Order. Rule 7 of the 1978 Rules refers to the power of the Bangladesh Government to “grant” citizenship.

It cannot be said therefore, that the Bangladesh government is compelled to grant citizenship to any person. The Bangladesh authorities do have discretion is exercising their powers to grant citizensehip.
Wholly incorrect to the point where it is nonsensical.


Rule 9 of the 1952 Rules requires a “person claiming citizenship by descent” to apply to the government; and then the government, after making such enquires as it deems fit, “shall pass orders on the application as it deems fit.”This also implies that the state is not compelled to recognize that a person is a Bangladeshi citizen and the authorities have discretion to refuse to recognize a person as Bangladeshi citizen.

Thus, dual citizenship or citizenship by descent is not an automatic right, it needs to be granted by the government of Bangladesh based on an application from the person seeking Bangladeshi citizenship by descent. One of the factors that the government of Bangladesh looks at while granting dual citizenship is an applicant’s ties to Bangladesh.


Shamima Begum, never having travelled to Bangladesh and never having applied for a Bangladeshi citizenship cannot be considered a Bangladeshi citizen."
An incorrect reading. The 1952 Rules provide simply for the administrative process for a person's Bangladeshi (at the that time, Pakistani) citizenship to be recognised by the Pakistani government following Partition and the establishment of the new state and its accompanying citizenship law, the 1951 Act. Citizenship by birth and descent are automatic operations of law under Section 4 and 5 of the 1951 Act. If a person fails to provide the correct evidence of their claim then the Bangladeshi government can choose not to recognise their claim, but that doesn't stop the person in question from being a Bangladeshi citizen.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 12:55 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643229)
The same due process etc followed that resulted in the Windrush scandal..
You clearly have more faith in politicians than I do.
Where was this due process etc regarding the 300 plus returnees already in the UK., men and women, fighters active supporters..
Are we really to believe that this girl and her baby represents a bigger threat than those already admitted to the U K.. ?.

:confused:
I am posting about the process which, from what you wrote, it seemed you had not read up on despite links & posts to help with that. I have not offered an opinion on that nor politicians political agendas.

I have however suggested that it might be interesting to widen the discussion to current legislations & how best to deal with these dedicated jihadists.

stevenglish1 Feb 25th 2019 12:57 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12643175)
D'you think?:rolleyes:
Any other gems?

What is this response even supposed to mean?

When Niemoeller first wrote that poem it was to urge people to stand up for the persecuted, the underdog, the little guy. Now it's being twisted out of its original context and used to defend the indefensible. Perhaps this poem is more akin to your new age thinking.

First they came for the paedophiles, and I spoke out for them even though I'm not a Paedophile
Then they came for Isis, and I spoke out for them even though I'm not Isis
Then they came for the murderers, and I spoke out for them even though I'm not a murderer
Then they came for me and the Paedophiles, terrorists and murderers stood there laughing and called me a mug as they carried me off

EMR Feb 25th 2019 12:57 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643233)
:confused:
I am posting about the process which, from what you wrote, it seemed you had not read up on despite links & posts to help with that. I have not offered an opinion on that nor politicians political agendas.

I have however suggested that it might be interesting to widen the discussion to current legislations & how best to deal with these dedicated jihadists.

Its not the process but the motivation behind it that concerns me.
This government's record on " the process " stinks.., this is just the latest example.

BristolUK Feb 25th 2019 1:02 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643229)
Are we really to believe that this girl and her baby represents a bigger threat than those already admitted to the U K.. ?.

A few posts back I said it would be useful to know something about those.

According to this report in the Independent

Only one in 10 jihadis returning from Syria to the UK have been prosecuted....Ben Wallace, the security minister, said around 40 people “have been successfully prosecuted so far – either because of direct action they have carried out in Syria or, subsequent to coming back, linked to that foreign fighting”. But more than 400 people “of national security concern” are believed to have returned from conflicts in Syria and Iraq.
Is this a different 400 to the 300 mentioned as undergoing deradicalisation? It's just that the report goes on....

Convicted terrorists can be put through the Home Office’s Desistance and Disengagement Programme in an effort to deradicalise them, but Mr Pantucci said its success was “very difficult” to gauge. While some returnees are still being monitored by police and intelligence services, others are not under active surveillance or restrictions.The most stringent measures – Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures (Tpims) – are only in force for eight people according to the most recent government statistics.




BEVS Feb 25th 2019 1:07 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643235)
Its not the process but the motivation behind it that concerns me.

- and that is fine. Then you would be reading up on said process and thinking for yourself how it could be updated and improved to be more relevant and current for the difficulties now faced regarding home security & the like. This thread being about ISIS radicals seeking repatriation .

One doesn't have to agree with or 'like' a process but it does and will have been followed.

I suppose for you a question might be
Should the process have been applied more rigorously previously
Should it not be applied.
Should it be more lenient
Should something be added to the process before a final decision is made. Someone whether we like it or not has to make that call.

Let us not suppose any difference between the genders or their supposed roles here. These are all radical jihadists that identify with the beliefs and MO of ISIS and Daesh.

stevenglish1 Feb 25th 2019 1:07 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643093)
Fact us hardly personal is it.

Facts? What facts? You want her put away indefinitely but can't indicate the charges. I'd like to know why you think I'm a Tommy Robinson supporter too if you see your way clear to justifying the accusation.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 1:10 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12643239)
A few posts back I said it would be useful to know something about those.

According to this report in the Independent

Only one in 10 jihadis returning from Syria to the UK have been prosecuted

From what I read elsewhere it can be difficult to prosecute because there is a risk of exposing or exposure of those working undercover . Therefore a difficult balance is struck in the interest of what best serves national security.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 1:12 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643093)
Fact us hardly personal is it.


Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 12643244)
Facts? What facts? You want her put away indefinitely but can't indicate the charges. I'd like to know why you think I'm a Tommy Robinson supporter too if you see your way clear to justifying the accusation.

Stobbit. :p

I have already asked that the person insults and jibes stop.

BristolUK Feb 25th 2019 1:18 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643245)
From what I read elsewhere it can be difficult to prosecute because there is a risk of exposing or exposure of those working undercover . Therefore a difficult balance is struck in the interest of what best serves national security.

Fair enough, but I was, though, thinking more about 40 out of 400 being prosecuted and 8 of the remaining 360 being under stringent measures, so 352 not being monitored, de-radicalised or whatever and wondering how that related to EMR's figure of people successfully being de-radicalised.

Because it looks as though they've just been left alone.

stevenglish1 Feb 25th 2019 1:20 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643247)
Stobbit. :p

I have already asked that the person insults and jibes stop.

Sorry mum :lol:

macliam Feb 25th 2019 1:36 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12643232)
There is no doubt as to whether Begum is a citizen as her citizenship by descent is provided for by Article 5 of the 1951 Act and her place of birth, parentage and the citizenship status of her parents at the time of her birth are not in question....... Citizenship by birth and descent are automatic operations of law under Section 4 and 5 of the 1951 Act. If a person fails to provide the correct evidence of their claim then the Bangladeshi government can choose not to recognise their claim, but that doesn't stop the person in question from being a Bangladeshi citizen.

Damned colonials, not understanding their own laws! So, the Dhaka Tribune is wrong and your interpretation is the only one - or is it?

"Najrul Khasru, a British-Bangladeshi barrister and part-time tribunal judge who has reviewed Bangladesh’s citizenship laws, told the Guardian he believed Begum was not a Bangladeshi citizen unless, at the time of her birth, her parents had registered her at the High Commission, which he said was very uncommon within the British-Bangladeshi community.
The Guardian understands Begum’s parents say they did not register her birth in this way.
" Guardian

It seems to me that this issue is not a clear as you claim.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 1:41 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12643249)
Fair enough, but I was, though, thinking more about 40 out of 400 being prosecuted and 8 of the remaining 360 being under stringent measures, so 352 not being monitored, de-radicalised or whatever and wondering how that related to EMR's figure of people successfully being de-radicalised.

Because it looks as though they've just been left alone.


Ah! My bad.

BritInParis Feb 25th 2019 2:11 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12643257)
Damned colonials, not understanding their own laws! So, the Dhaka Tribune is wrong and your interpretation is the only one - or is it?

"Najrul Khasru, a British-Bangladeshi barrister and part-time tribunal judge who has reviewed Bangladesh’s citizenship laws, told the Guardian he believed Begum was not a Bangladeshi citizen unless, at the time of her birth, her parents had registered her at the High Commission, which he said was very uncommon within the British-Bangladeshi community.
The Guardian understands Begum’s parents say they did not register her birth in this way.
" Guardian

It seems to me that this issue is not a clear as you claim.

Unless you’re actually going to engage with the relevant legislation rather than just posting newspaper articles I think we are just wasting our time here.

chawkins99 Feb 25th 2019 2:18 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12643267)
Unless you’re actually going to engage with the relevant legislation rather than just posting newspaper articles I think we are just wasting our time here.

:goodpost:


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