British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Take it Outside! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/)
-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

EMR Feb 24th 2019 8:34 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 12643089)
And there we have EMR getting personal again. Well done

Fact us hardly personal is it.

EMR Feb 24th 2019 8:35 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12643092)
It's standard form from him when he's lost the argument.

Really this case has not eleven reached the courts yet..


macliam Feb 24th 2019 10:31 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 12643079)
As far as I'm aware the the Socialists, unionists and Jews didn't advocate the beheading of charity workers. I've seen that Neimoellr one used in defence of Paedophiles on this site as well.

D'you think?:rolleyes:
Any other gems?

BritInParis Feb 24th 2019 11:26 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12642767)
That is just your opinion, not a fact.
Let the courts decide, .


Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642772)
As of this week, Shamima Begum is no longer a British citizen. Therefore the UK has already made her stateless as she currently holds no other citizenship. As Patrick Galey said in Politico "The government argues that because Begum could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship in future, she isn’t technically stateless. This is hard to take seriously. It would be analogous for the government to demolish your house, then deny it had made you homeless because you could theoretically build another." So, the only citizenship that she had was British by birth and the British Government has used Royal Prerogative to strip her of this, without judicial oversight.

What part of the fact that she DOES NOT have dual citizenship is it so hard to understand? At best, she WAS in a position where she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until age 21 - but acceptance is NOT automatic, she has NOT applied and the Bangladeshi government has said citizenship will NOT be granted. So Javid has jumped the gun - but will likely sit back and leave her stateless until forced to rescind his order. Until then, she will remain as a stateless person in a refugee camp run by a non-government militia - out of sight, out of mind.

For the hard of reading, let's give this another go.

She is not stateless as she has Bangladeshi citizenship by descent. This is automatic operation of law under Section 5 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.
Bangladesh does not restrict dual nationality until an individual reaches the age of 21 under Section 14 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.

As such she was automatically a British citizen by birth and a Bangladeshi citizen by descent until she was stripped of her British citizenship last week by the Home Secretary under powers granted to him under Section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Now she is a sole Bangladeshi citizen. The Bangladeshi government may not like that very much but's that their nationality law. If they now decide to strip her of her Bangladeshi citizenship under Section 16 of the Citizenship Act of 1951 then they can do so. This would leave her stateless, but since Bangladesh is not a signatory to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness nor is this prevented by domestic law, then there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they wish to.


Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642787)
I have already addressed points 1 & 2 and I agree with you.
So I guess I have misunderstood point 3

Is this the UK Supreme Court ruling that would refer to point 3

Michaelmas Term [2013] UKSC 62On appeal from: [2012] EWCA Civ 358

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...9-judgment.pdf

or was it
Hilary Term [2015] UKSC 19On appeal from: [2013] EWCA Civ 616

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...0-judgment.pdf

The Home Secretary has the ability to strip someone of their British citizenship under Section 40(4A) BNA 1981 even if it would leave them stateless if a) they naturalised as a British citizen, b) "conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom" or c) there exist reasonable grounds that the person in question is able to acquire the citizenship of another country. This is fully compatible with the Convention under Article 8. There is an appeal process which those two Supreme Court judgements would fall under. The court can decide whether leaving someone stateless meets the test set out in both domestic and international legislation but it doesn't prevent the Home Secretary from carrying out the deprivation in the first place.

EMR Feb 24th 2019 11:41 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12643200)
For the hard of reading, let's give this another go.

She is not stateless as she has Bangladeshi citizenship by descent. This is automatic operation of law under Section 5 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.
Bangladesh does not restrict dual nationality until an individual reaches the age of 21 under Section 14 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.

As such she was automatically a British citizen by birth and a Bangladeshi citizen by descent until she was stripped of her British citizenship last week by the Home Secretary under powers granted to him under Section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Now she is a sole Bangladeshi citizen. The Bangladeshi government may not like that very much but's that their nationality law. If they now decide to strip her of her Bangladeshi citizenship under Section 16 of the Citizenship Act of 1951 then they can do so. This would leave her stateless, but since Bangladesh is not a signatory to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness nor is this prevented by domestic law, then there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they wish to.



The Home Secretary has the ability to strip someone of their British citizenship under Section 40(4A) BNA 1981 even if it would leave them stateless if a) they naturalised as a British citizen, b) "conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom" or c) there exist reasonable grounds that the person in question is able to acquire the citizenship of another country. This is fully compatible with the Convention under Article 8. There is an appeal process which those two Supreme Court judgements would fall under. The court can decide whether leaving someone stateless meets the test set out in both domestic and international legislation but it doesn't prevent the Home Secretary from carrying out the deprivation in the first place.

If it was as black and white as you tsay there will not be a court case and in all probability a judgement against the Government.

But let's wait and see,.


macliam Feb 24th 2019 11:51 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12643200)
For the hard of reading, let's give this another go.

She is not stateless as she has Bangladeshi citizenship by descent. This is automatic operation of law under Section 5 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.
Bangladesh does not restrict dual nationality until an individual reaches the age of 21 under Section 14 of the Citizenship Act of 1951.

As such she was automatically a British citizen by birth and a Bangladeshi citizen by descent until she was stripped of her British citizenship last week by the Home Secretary under powers granted to him under Section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Now she is a sole Bangladeshi citizen. The Bangladeshi government may not like that very much but's that their nationality law. If they now decide to strip her of her Bangladeshi citizenship under Section 16 of the Citizenship Act of 1951 then they can do so. This would leave her stateless, but since Bangladesh is not a signatory to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness nor is this prevented by domestic law, then there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they wish to.

Would that it was as clear as you claim - I quote the Dhaka Tribune

"Citizenship in Bangladesh is governed by the following laws: Citizenship Act, 1951; Citizenship Rules, 1952; Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Order 1972; and Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Rules 1978.

The provisions of the 1951 Act and the 1952 Rules are to be read together with the 1972 Order, and the 1978 Rules to get a complete picture of the laws of citizenship in Bangladesh. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the 1951 Act and the 1952 Rules, but the issued is dealt with in the 1972 Order and the 1978 Rules.

The 1972 Order refers to the power of the Government to “grant” citizenship upon an application. Article 3 of the 1972 Order states that, in case of doubt as to whether a person is qualified to be deemed to be a citizen of Bangladesh under Article 2 (which would be applicable for dual citizens) the question shall be decided by the government, which decision shall be final. Article 4 of the 1972 Order state that the “government may, upon an application made to it in this behalf in the manner prescribed, grant citizenship to any person.”

Rule 3 of the 1978 Rules requires an application to be made seeking Bangladeshi citizenship under clause 2 of Article 2B of the 1972 Order. Rule 7 of the 1978 Rules refers to the power of the Bangladesh Government to “grant” citizenship.
It cannot be said therefore, that the Bangladesh government is compelled to grant citizenship to any person. The Bangladesh authorities do have discretion is exercising their powers to grant citizenship.

Rule 9 of the 1952 Rules requires a “person claiming citizenship by descent” to apply to the government; and then the government, after making such enquires as it deems fit, “shall pass orders on the application as it deems fit.”This also implies that the state is not compelled to recognize that a person is a Bangladeshi citizen and the authorities have discretion to refuse to recognize a person as Bangladeshi citizen.

Thus, dual citizenship or citizenship by descent is not an automatic right, it needs to be granted by the government of Bangladesh based on an application from the person seeking Bangladeshi citizenship by descent. One of the factors that the government of Bangladesh looks at while granting dual citizenship is an applicant’s ties to Bangladesh.
[/B]

[B]Shamima Begum, never having travelled to Bangladesh and never having applied for a Bangladeshi citizenship cannot be considered a Bangladeshi citizen."

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 12:00 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643207)
If it was as black and white as you say there will not be a court case and in all probability a judgement against the Government.

But let's wait and see.

I've been a bit in despair at some of the recent posts to this thread. Little to no content other than jibes to others.

To quote BiP who actually does know what he is talking about when it comes to this stuff.


There is an appeal process which those two Supreme Court judgements would fall under
I read the relevant parts of the Convention & the Nationality Act. It seems some are choosing not to.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 12:05 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12643213)
Would that it was as clear as you claim - I quote the Dhaka Tribune


"[I]Rule 9 of the 1952 Rules requires a “person claiming citizenship by descent” to apply to the government; and then the government, after making such enquires as it deems fit, “shall pass orders on the application as it deems fit.”

As BiP points out


Now she is a sole Bangladeshi citizen. The Bangladeshi government may not like that very much but's that their nationality law. If they now decide to strip her of her Bangladeshi citizenship under Section 16 of the Citizenship Act of 1951 then they can do so. This would leave her stateless, but since Bangladesh is not a signatory to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness nor is this prevented by domestic law, then there's nothing to stop them from doing so if they wish to.
She is a Bangladesh Citizen by descent just as I am an Irish Citizen by descent.

She can choose to apply for citizenship of that country just as I did for Ireland. Whether they accept the application or not is a matter for them. If they do not , then she becomes stateless.

edit here to add.
For those that may not realise. Her Father is living in Bangladesh.

EMR Feb 25th 2019 12:07 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643214)
I've been a bit in despair at some of the recent posts to this thread. Little to no content other than jibes to others.

To quote BiP who actually does know what he is talking about when it comes to this stuff.



I read the relevant parts of the Convention & the Nationality Act. It seems some are choosing not to.

Once again, the UK courts will make the final judgement, not me, not Brit in Paris or Anyone else on this forum.
Fortunately how we deal with issues like this is not governed by the range of opinions and views expressed on this thread .
Javid decision was purely politically expedient, he will have to prove in court that it was not and that Begum presents a real and genuine threat to the safety and security of the UK..

Shard Feb 25th 2019 12:22 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643214)
I've been a bit in despair at some of the recent posts to this thread. Little to no content other than jibes to others.

.

I've been bemused at the sheer number of responses on this thread, 460 and rising. I wonder what Shammima would make of it, random expats debating her immigration status at great length and making wild pronouncements on her future.

BEVS Feb 25th 2019 12:24 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643219)
Once again, the UK courts will make the final judgement, not me, not Brit in Paris or Anyone else on this forum.
Fortunately how we deal with issues like this is not governed by the range of opinions and views expressed on this thread .

Now I have no idea where you are coming from , nor what you are talking about.

How the UK has and will deal with this is set down and has been linked to in this thread. It is a process.

That process has and will give thought to the security of those undercover and national security .

However here on BE we are free to express our considered opinions and points of view on whether this particular jihadist should be allowed to re-enter the UK or not AND we should be able to do that without posts that imply insult.

As a part of that discussion we can also debate the current UK legislations in place regarding how these jihadists are dealt with, both in regard to each personal case and also with regard to national security.

The reduction of statelessness is covered by the current convention.


Originally Posted by Shard
I've been bemused at the sheer number of responses on this thread, 460 and rising. I wonder what Shammima would make of it, random expats debating her immigration status at great length and making wild pronouncements on her future.

At the risk of flippancy and immense bad taste I might suggest she may think, to quote the Red Queen of Alice in Wonderland - "Off with their heads"

EMR Feb 25th 2019 12:26 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643224)
Now I have no idea where you are coming from , nor what you are talking about.

How the UK has and will deal with this is set down and has been linked to in this thread. It is a process.

That process has and will give thought to the security of those undercover and national security .

However here on BE we are free to express our considered opinions and points of view on whether this particular jihadist should be allowed to re-enter the UK or not AND we should be able to do that without posts that imply insult.

As a part of that discussion we can also debate the current UK legislations in place regarding how these jihadists are dealt with, both in regard to each personal case and also with regard to national security.

The reduction of statelessness is covered by the current convention.

This was purely a politically motivated decision by the Home Secretary, nothing else..


BEVS Feb 25th 2019 12:31 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12643226)
This was purely a politically motivated decision by the Home Secretary, nothing else.

Regardless of that opinion, due process following consultation & advice will have been followed.

BristolUK Feb 25th 2019 12:39 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

EMR Feb 25th 2019 12:42 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12643227)
Regardless of that opinion, due process following consultation & advice will have been followed.

The same due process etc followed that resulted in the Windrush scandal..
You clearly have more faith in politicians than I do.
Where was this due process etc regarding the 300 plus returnees already in the UK., men and women, fighters active supporters..
Are we really to believe that this girl and her baby represents a bigger threat than those already admitted to the U K.. ?.


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:30 am.

Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.