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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

chawkins99 Feb 19th 2019 6:42 pm

Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked

Apparently, she has (had) dual British and Bangladeshi citizenship.

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision.

materialcontroller Feb 19th 2019 6:49 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
At least the Tories got something right.

Lion in Winter Feb 19th 2019 6:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Other than the fact that she was a minor when she left the UK (age 15) which causes me reservations, as long as she is not left stateless it's hard to feel bad about this. I'm not sure that it furthers the cause of reducing recruitment to extremist causes though. Seems to me she has now been made a martyr and much could be made of it in extremist recruitment/grooming circles. I also worry about the child, who is obviously to blame for nothing.

materialcontroller Feb 19th 2019 6:58 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12639694)
Other than the fact that she was a minor when she left the UK (age 15) which causes me reservations, as long as she is not left stateless it's hard to feel bad about this. I'm not sure that it furthers the cause of reducing recruitment to extremist causes though. Seems to me she has now been made a martyr and much could be made of it in extremist recruitment/grooming circles. I also worry about the child, who is obviously to blame for nothing.

She can always fall back on her Bangladeshi nationality.

Seriously, bloody good riddance to her. The UK is finally acting with some balls for a change.

chawkins99 Feb 19th 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12639694)
Other than the fact that she was a minor when she left the UK (age 15) which causes me reservations, as long as she is not left stateless it's hard to feel bad about this. I'm not sure that it furthers the cause of reducing recruitment to extremist causes though. Seems to me she has now been made a martyr and much could be made of it in extremist recruitment/grooming circles. I also worry about the child, who is obviously to blame for nothing.

In a couple of interviews I have seen, she is completely unrepentant. She made a half-hearted apology (when prompted by the interviewer) for incidents such as Manchester Arena but qualified it by saying it was justified retaliation for deaths in Syria. She also said she "wasn't fazed by the sight of severed heads in bins".

I agree with the total innocence of the baby. This is her third child. The previous two both died of disease and malnutrition before they reached 2 years.

Lion in Winter Feb 19th 2019 7:20 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12639710)
In a couple of interviews I have seen, she is completely unrepentant. She made a half-hearted apology (when prompted by the interviewer) for incidents such as Manchester Arena but qualified it by saying it was justified retaliation for deaths in Syria. She also said she "wasn't fazed by the sight of severed heads in bins".

I agree with the total innocence of the baby. This is her third child. The previous two both died of disease and malnutrition before they reached 2 years.


Yes, it's not that I think that she is in some way "worthy". She isn't, and is very likely to have been party to some appalling things. She doesn't sound very bright at all, and clearly fell for some garbage at the age of 15 and she doesn't sound as though she's grown up much since then. Since she apparently has another citizenship we don't have to take her, and had she returned she clearly could not have been allowed to simply re-enter society as a free woman, but I do have concerns about a government minister deciding who is and is not worthy of British citizenship with no due process at all. We might agree with him in this instance, but what of others? Removal of full citizenship from groups of people has seldom been used for good. And I can absolutely see this being used as propaganda.

Boiler Feb 19th 2019 9:44 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
There is of course no good ending and there are hundreds now and thousands to come where this solution may not be an option. Well who knows how many, a lot.

There is an appeals process btw and I am sure the usual suspects will not be happy, begs the question what would you need to do to make them happy.

As far as the child is concerned that is an issue for the Bangladeshi authorities now, like any other Bangladeshi child.

BritInParis Feb 19th 2019 9:49 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
If she’s so keen to live in an Islamic state then Bangladesh would seem to be a perfect fit. Interestingly her son is still a British citizen so he can return if he wishes.

BEVS Feb 19th 2019 9:51 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12639685)

Apparently, she has (had) dual British and Bangladeshi citizenship.

Yes. She does. Her parents are originally from there. Bangladesh allows for dual citizenship.

Both she and her family will be able to live together in that country.

Giantaxe Feb 19th 2019 9:53 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639819)
There is of course no good ending and there are hundreds now and thousands to come where this solution may not be an option. Well who knows how many, a lot.

There is an appeals process btw and I am sure the usual suspects will not be happy, begs the question what would you need to do to make them happy.

As far as the child is concerned that is an issue for the Bangladeshi authorities now, like any other Bangladeshi child.

The child was born before their mother was stripped of British citizenship. I would presume that means they are a British citizen. I'm not convinced this is going to end well for the UK government once this goes down the legal road.

BritInParis Feb 19th 2019 10:05 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 12639827)
The child was born before their mother was stripped of British citizenship. I would presume that means they are a British citizen. I'm not convinced this is going to end well for the UK government once this goes down the legal road.

How so?

Giantaxe Feb 19th 2019 10:49 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12639837)
How so?

From what I've read she currently holds only a UK passport. She may be entitled to a Bangladeshi passport, but they could decline to issue her with one. She was a minor when she committed the alleged offence for which she is being deprived of her citizenship for. And her British citizen son would effectively be deprived of his right to grow up in the UK with his mother. Plenty of bones there for lawyers to grasp hold of.

BristolUK Feb 19th 2019 10:59 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Couple of points. In the first interview - or at least the first report - she said the UK government had no evidence of her having done anything terrorist related. Not "I haven't done anything" but they have no evidence. It maybe nothing but it just seems odd.

There's another similar case in the US of a woman wanting to go home. She actually admits to recruiting efforts and encouraging bloodshed, mowing innocents down etc.
But she actually sounds repentant. :nod:

Shard Feb 19th 2019 11:53 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12639693)
At least the Tories got something right.

Yes they did. I have a feeling it is partly a political decision though, they know it will play well to the public, and I think even Javid is looking towards his own ambitions.

BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 12:01 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 12639858)
From what I've read she currently holds only a UK passport. She may be entitled to a Bangladeshi passport, but they could decline to issue her with one. She was a minor when she committed the alleged offence for which she is being deprived of her citizenship for. And her British citizen son would effectively be deprived of his right to grow up in the UK with his mother. Plenty of bones there for lawyers to grasp hold of.

The Bangladeshi government could do but not having a passport doesn’t not make you a citizen of a country. If they decide to strip her of her Bangladeshi citizenship later on leaving her stateless then that would be their decision. Unlike the UK Bangladesh is not party to the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness.

She was still of the age of criminal responsibility when she left the UK and remains utterly unrepentant now she is an adult.

That her son is a British citizen has no more effect on her ability to live in the UK than it would do for any other non-British citizen parent.

The legislation is pretty clear - I would urge you to read it.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/40

BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 12:02 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12639888)
Yes they did. I have a feeling it is partly a political decision though, they know it will play well to the public, and I think even Javid is looking towards his own ambitions.

Correct.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 12:17 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
She is not the first dual to go this way, and I do not see how her case is different.

I seem to remember most US Citizens do not have a US Passport, I have no idea if she has a current British Passport or it expired ditto her Bangladeshi Passport.

Also seems unclear where she was born.

The Baby may have a claim for Dutch Citizenship by the sound of it and I thought Dutch did not allow dual citizenship?

What a mess.

BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 12:35 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639896)
She is not the first dual to go this way, and I do not see how her case is different.

I seem to remember most US Citizens do not have a US Passport, I have no idea if she has a current British Passport or it expired ditto her Bangladeshi Passport.

Also seems unclear where she was born.

The Baby may have a claim for Dutch Citizenship by the sound of it and I thought Dutch did not allow dual citizenship?

What a mess.

She actually left the UK on her sister’s passport so she wouldn’t have one to return on even if she wasn’t about to be stripped of her citizenship. As you say there’s also a dispute about whether she was born in the UK or Bangladesh.

Her child would remain British and entitled to a British passport presuming she is actually able to register the birth with the Syrian government which seems unlikely. I suspect the Dutch won’t be taking any interest at all in the child.

markonline1 Feb 20th 2019 12:41 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Good!!!!!!

BEVS Feb 20th 2019 12:48 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12639900)
As you say there’s also a dispute about whether she was born in the UK or Bangladesh.

There is a UK birth reg. for a person of the same name born in the Tower Hamlets area 2qtr 1999. Mother's name as Begum .

BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 12:51 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 12639906)
There is a UK birth reg. for a person of the same name born in the Tower Hamlets area 2qtr 1999. Mother's name as Begum .

I count several more around the same time in Tower Hamlets. Too common a name in the Bangladeshi community there to say with any certainty that it is her. Lots of newspaper interviews with her mother that fail to mention her name beyond “Shamima’s mother” so no help in narrowing it down.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 12:56 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I thought her Mother died?

BEVS Feb 20th 2019 12:57 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12639907)
I count several more around the same time in Tower Hamlets. Too common a name in the Bangladeshi community there to say with any certainty that it is her. Lots of newspaper interviews with her mother that fail to mention her name beyond “Shamima’s mother” so no help in narrowing it down.

True enough. The differing spellings do not help.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 1:00 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Sounds like nobody really knows who she is.

BEVS Feb 20th 2019 1:03 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639908)
I thought her Mother died?

Me too.

BritInParis Feb 20th 2019 1:03 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639908)
I thought her Mother died?

Different girl, similar name.

BEVS Feb 20th 2019 1:03 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12639913)
Different girl, similar name.

Heck

Giantaxe Feb 20th 2019 1:28 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12639900)
She actually left the UK on her sister’s passport so she wouldn’t have one to return on even if she wasn’t about to be stripped of her citizenship. As you say there’s also a dispute about whether she was born in the UK or Bangladesh.

Her child would remain British and entitled to a British passport presuming she is actually able to register the birth with the Syrian government which seems unlikely. I suspect the Dutch won’t be taking any interest at all in the child.

The most interesting thing in that statute is this:

"Before making an order under this section in respect of a person the Secretary of State must give the person written notice specifying—"

According to this article the letter:

"... asks her mother to pass on details of the order to her daughter, who is currently in a Syrian refugee camp without access to a phone".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hip-be-stopped

I don't see how this is going to pass legal muster. A British official is going to have to serve her, not her mum. So something else for lawyers to latch onto.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bangladesh preemptively washing their hands of her if she doesn't currently hold a Bangladeshi passport.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 1:35 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
So she has no passport, if she has her Sisters I assume that has been flagged so would not work.

I can imagine a few issues applying for one...

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 1:36 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 12639926)
The most interesting thing in that statute is this:

"Before making an order under this section in respect of a person the Secretary of State must give the person written notice specifying—"

According to this article the letter:

"... asks her mother to pass on details of the order to her daughter, who is currently in a Syrian refugee camp without access to a phone".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hip-be-stopped

I don't see how this is going to pass legal muster. A British official is going to have to serve her, not her mum. So something else for lawyers to latch onto.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bangladesh preemptively washing their hands of her if she doesn't currently hold a Bangladeshi passport.

I assume they sent it to her last known address.

Giantaxe Feb 20th 2019 1:44 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639933)
I assume they sent it to her last known address.

Which, again, seems unlikely to pass legal muster. At the very least, it's something you pretty much know is going to be latched onto by any legal defence of her. What we do apparently know is that they wrote to her mother asking her to pass on the info. Surely the onus would be on the UK government to locate her and give her the written notice required by statute?

Of course, the flip side is she has no way to travel back to the UK, so the UK government holds a big card there. So my bet is that this leads to a legal action sooner or later. What a mess.

RICH Feb 20th 2019 2:04 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639896)
She is not the first dual to go this way, and I do not see how her case is different.

I seem to remember most US Citizens do not have a US Passport, I have no idea if she has a current British Passport or it expired ditto her Bangladeshi Passport.

Also seems unclear where she was born.

The Baby may have a claim for Dutch Citizenship by the sound of it and I thought Dutch did not allow dual citizenship?

What a mess.

I think Dutch allow dual if you are married to a Dutch, but not applicable to the baby in this case.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 2:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 12639938)
Which, again, seems unlikely to pass legal muster. At the very least, it's something you pretty much know is going to be latched onto by any legal defence of her. What we do apparently know is that they wrote to her mother asking her to pass on the info. Surely the onus would be on the UK government to locate her and give her the written notice required by statute?

Of course, the flip side is she has no way to travel back to the UK, so the UK government holds a big card there. So my bet is that this leads to a legal action sooner or later. What a mess.

I do not know the verbiage, but strikes me that it would be very odd if you need signed delivery.

mmmmbuti Feb 20th 2019 3:36 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
She was born in the UK, and she has never been to Bangladesh. This is a very dangerous precedent to deprive a natural born British citizen of their nationality. Plus she hasn't committed any violent crime.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 3:40 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by mmmmbuti (Post 12639956)
She was born in the UK, and she has never been to Bangladesh. This is a very dangerous precedent to deprive a natural born British citizen of their nationality. Plus she hasn't committed any violent crime.

She presumably have never been to Syria before she went to Syria so not sure what the relevance of that is.

You will find many people on this forum with 2 or more Citizenship's.

BEVS Feb 20th 2019 3:58 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by mmmmbuti (Post 12639956)
She was born in the UK, and she has never been to Bangladesh. This is a very dangerous precedent to deprive a natural born British citizen of their nationality. Plus she hasn't committed any violent crime.

It is not certain at the moment where this person was born.
What she did or did not do in respect of violent crime is not known at all.
What she colluded with is also not know however her actions & words seem pretty darn clear. Who she colluded with is known.
What she thought was OK to do is known. She said so herself.

This person chose to deprive themselves of the freedoms of the UK using a passport that was not theirs to use. I think the intention is clear.

That this person may now feel a bit uncomfy in her choice because the cause she joined freely is on a back foot, shall we say, should not be the UKs concern. Nor should anyone risk themselves or others for her now. After all this is not an OE and a moment of a mad fling leaving her pregnant we are talking about here.
Likelihood is that if all was going well as she and her cause hoped , then she would still be happy living among beheadings, torture and violence to others & not now pleading to be returned at other people's risk and expence.

Don't get me wrong. I am not happy with the way the world is currently turning, nor with a lot of foreign policies out there but in these days it can be very hard to feel tolerance and understanding for someone like this and that includes the family.

They show no mercy or tolerance or understanding. Why should the UK people.






Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639958)
She presumably have never been to Syria before she went to Syria so not sure what the relevance of that is.

You will find many people on this forum with 2 or more Citizenship's.

True.
I hold 2 and could hold 3.

mmmmbuti Feb 20th 2019 4:29 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639958)
She presumably have never been to Syria before she went to Syria so not sure what the relevance of that is.

You will find many people on this forum with 2 or more Citizenship's.

She is a teenager who has no connection with Bangladesh, and has already had 3 pregnancies. In just 4 years I doubt she had time to do much else other than give birth and try to survive with her kids. She hasn't Bangladesh citizenship yet, she needs to apply for it. Making her stateless after all she went through amounts to politically motivated cruelty to me.

Boiler Feb 20th 2019 4:34 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by mmmmbuti (Post 12639963)
She is a teenager who has no connection with Bangladesh, and has already had 3 pregnancies. In just 4 years I doubt she had time to do much else other than give birth and try to survive with her kids. She hasn't Bangladesh citizenship yet, she needs to apply for it. Making her stateless after all she went through amounts to politically motivated cruelty to me.

Ohh dear

She does not have a Bangladesh Passport, well we do not know but probably does not.

She does not it appears have a UK one either.

You do not need to have a Passport to be a Citizen.

Cruelty had degrees, chopping heads off I would out up there near the top. Never mind the rest of the stuff.

She is Bangladeshi, her Parents are Bangladeshi, seems her father is there at the moment so not sure what the issue with connections is. She may even have been born there, that bit seems unclear.

dc koop Feb 20th 2019 5:35 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Way to go ! Thumbs Up

Pollyana Feb 20th 2019 6:20 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by mmmmbuti (Post 12639963)
She is a teenager who has no connection with Bangladesh, and has already had 3 pregnancies. In just 4 years I doubt she had time to do much else other than give birth and try to survive with her kids. She hasn't Bangladesh citizenship yet, she needs to apply for it. Making her stateless after all she went through amounts to politically motivated cruelty to me.

She is not stateless. Read the posts above. The UK cannot remove her British citizenship if it leaves her stateless. Because she holds dual citizenship they can remove her British status, leaving her as a Bangladeshi citizen.
And they are welcome to her.


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