Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
#121

I'm afraid a significant share of the votes isn't a majority. And democracy demands the majority wins. Whatever the vote the majority win, Brexit, National voting. Yes, I think it is democratic. Voting is about recording an opinion. Democracy will out I'm afraid. I would vote for it!!!!
If 'democracy demands the majority wins' then FPTP is failing badly.
#122

GE 2019 total votes 32.014.110
Tories votes 13.966.454
Other parties votes 18.047.656
Majority of voters did NOT vote Tories and yet they have a 80 seats majority out of 650 seats.
Tories votes 13.966.454
Other parties votes 18.047.656
Majority of voters did NOT vote Tories and yet they have a 80 seats majority out of 650 seats.
#123
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There have been 18 UK governments since WWII, and only one was elected by a majority of the votes cast. Democracy demands the majority wins. When is the UK going to introduce democracy?
For the record, here are the figures: year of UK general election and percentage of votes cast for the governing party.
2019 44%
2017 42%
2015 37%
2010 36% + 23% *
2005 35%
2001 40%
1997 43%
1992 42%
1987 42%
1983 42%
1979 44%
1974 39%
1974 37% **
1970 46%
1966 48%
1959 49%
1955 50% ***
1950 46%
1945 48%
* Votes for the two parties of the ruling coalition
** The "winning" party in fact received fewer votes than the second-placed party
*** more precisely 49.7%
#124
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#125
#126
So long...










Joined: Jul 2007
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With respect you can play with the stats as much as you wish. Manipulate or misinterpret what I have said, it really isn't important. You know and I know that the party with the greater number of MPs is the winner in an election. The winning MP has won by virtue of the greater number of votes cast for hi/her. I can't help it if you believe the U.K. to be undemocratic, I think otherwise. You will believe what you want to believe, so will I!!
The UK is democratic compared to some countries, but it's a flawed democracy when people believe, as you do, that winner takes all is a representative democracy.
#127

#128
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I actually want to win the next election. Corbyn and Lib Dem dead-enderism, after-the-fact temper tantrums about election rules, refusals to self-reflect and refusals to build coalitions across wide segments of society (or worse yet, viewing said coalitions as a weakness) are just about the complete opposite way to go about that.
Thankfully, the Democratic Party looks to have avoided (just barely) the worst instincts of the extremist activists, and for that will be rewarded with electoral viability.
The whole point of these exercises is to actually win elections and have power.
#129

I honestly don't think the same people would be complaining if Corbyn had won 40-something % of all votes cast and got into power.
On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
#130

I honestly don't think the same people would be complaining if Corbyn had won 40-something % of all votes cast and got into power.
On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
But it isn't illegitimate to question the entire system, when you look at all these results. Perhaps the source of many of our problems is this combative, two-party system, where all other parties and the majority of the populace are effectively locked out of power and representation.
#131

We've covered this already on this thread. Party political feeling and division have become so high that it's apparently (for many on this thread anyway) impossible to discuss the defects of the FPTP system without taking it as a complaint because the "wrong" party won. Nevertheless, irrespective of which party won, the numbers clearly state that the share of power that government we now have holds is disproportionately high to the number of people who voted for them, and that the share of power (almost none, and completely none for the parties with only a handful of MPs) that other parties now hold is also disproportionately low to the number of people who voted for them. That's just a fact. Obviously, whichever way an election goes there are going to be some people who are happy with that because they "won". In 2001, Labour gained a huge majority in Parliament, much, much larger than Johnson's, with a slightly smaller lead in vote share than Johnson got. I expect most Labour supporters were ok with that and I expect Tories complained then, but I wasn't on BE, and of course the poisonous brexit wasn't in the mix. That is largely what has created so much anger and division and what made this election different in terms of how people reacted to it.
But it isn't illegitimate to question the entire system, when you look at all these results. Perhaps the source of many of our problems is this combative, two-party system, where all other parties and the majority of the populace are effectively locked out of power and representation.
But it isn't illegitimate to question the entire system, when you look at all these results. Perhaps the source of many of our problems is this combative, two-party system, where all other parties and the majority of the populace are effectively locked out of power and representation.
Everyone just moans about everything, it's what people do. There isn't a perfect system, it is what it is, play the game as it stands and try to make a result happen. Everyone faces the same rules.
#132

I think the problem is people are just going to be people and whinge regardless. It's human nature. If the format were different and Tories lost, they'd moan. If the format was this and Labour lost, they'd moan.
Everyone just moans about everything, it's what people do. There isn't a perfect system, it is what it is, play the game as it stands and try to make a result happen. Everyone faces the same rules.
Everyone just moans about everything, it's what people do. There isn't a perfect system, it is what it is, play the game as it stands and try to make a result happen. Everyone faces the same rules.
#133

I don't disagree that some people will always moan and whine, but the fact that this is the case should not stop us from attempting to create an electoral system that is more representative. It never is what it is - FPTP didn't come down the mountainside on tablets - it is what we have made it and if we managed to move on from rotten boroughs and some districts getting more than one MP, and voting rights dependent on property ownership or sex, we can move on from this. And we should.
#134

Sure, but that doesn't change the way in which are (aren't) represented. Safeguards and requirements are good, but the system they support needs to be functional for a modern representative democracy and the one we have clearly is no longer.
#135

I don't know of a proportional, locally represented voting system that ends up with the kind of result that people would get behind. Maybe I should invent one. I probably could at the weekend.