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Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Old Mar 7th 2020, 9:01 am
  #121  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
I'm afraid a significant share of the votes isn't a majority. And democracy demands the majority wins. Whatever the vote the majority win, Brexit, National voting. Yes, I think it is democratic. Voting is about recording an opinion. Democracy will out I'm afraid. I would vote for it!!!!
As has been pointed out, the current FPTP system means that you do not need a majority to win and it rarely happens.

If 'democracy demands the majority wins' then FPTP is failing badly.
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 9:03 am
  #122  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

GE 2019 total votes 32.014.110
Tories votes 13.966.454
Other parties votes 18.047.656

Majority of voters did NOT vote Tories and yet they have a 80 seats majority out of 650 seats.
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 9:31 am
  #123  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post


There have been 18 UK governments since WWII, and only one was elected by a majority of the votes cast. Democracy demands the majority wins. When is the UK going to introduce democracy?

For the record, here are the figures: year of UK general election and percentage of votes cast for the governing party.

2019 44%
2017 42%
2015 37%
2010 36% + 23% *
2005 35%
2001 40%
1997 43%
1992 42%
1987 42%
1983 42%
1979 44%
1974 39%
1974 37% **
1970 46%
1966 48%
1959 49%
1955 50% ***
1950 46%
1945 48%

* Votes for the two parties of the ruling coalition
** The "winning" party in fact received fewer votes than the second-placed party
*** more precisely 49.7%
With respect you can play with the stats as much as you wish. Manipulate or misinterpret what I have said, it really isn't important. You know and I know that the party with the greater number of MPs is the winner in an election. The winning MP has won by virtue of the greater number of votes cast for hi/her. I can't help it if you believe the U.K. to be undemocratic, I think otherwise. You will believe what you want to believe, so will I!!
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 12:07 pm
  #124  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Have you tried meditation at all?
You ignored my question. Have you reflected on the link between Corbyn's - and the Lib Dems - policies and the election outcome? If so, what did you find?
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 2:54 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This is the sensible thread. The trolling threads are the other way.
You wouldn't think tripe like that post would be written by someone who claims to be "of the left" would you.
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 9:10 pm
  #126  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
With respect you can play with the stats as much as you wish. Manipulate or misinterpret what I have said, it really isn't important. You know and I know that the party with the greater number of MPs is the winner in an election. The winning MP has won by virtue of the greater number of votes cast for hi/her. I can't help it if you believe the U.K. to be undemocratic, I think otherwise. You will believe what you want to believe, so will I!!
With a complete lack of respect intended, the stats have already been played with when 43.6% of votes cast gives the winning party 56.2% of the available seats...... And the gerrymandering of constituency boundaries have almost always favoured Tory seats, those that haven't have benefited Labour. I don't recall any boundary changes that have benefited smaller parties....

The UK is democratic compared to some countries, but it's a flawed democracy when people believe, as you do, that winner takes all is a representative democracy.
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Old Mar 7th 2020, 10:26 pm
  #127  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The UK is democratic compared to some countries, but it's a flawed democracy when people believe, as you do, that winner takes all is a representative democracy.
A friend of mine has always called it an elected dictatorship.
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Old Mar 8th 2020, 12:05 am
  #128  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
You wouldn't think tripe like that post would be written by someone who claims to be "of the left" would you.
Incorrect with that comment, again.

I actually want to win the next election. Corbyn and Lib Dem dead-enderism, after-the-fact temper tantrums about election rules, refusals to self-reflect and refusals to build coalitions across wide segments of society (or worse yet, viewing said coalitions as a weakness) are just about the complete opposite way to go about that.

Thankfully, the Democratic Party looks to have avoided (just barely) the worst instincts of the extremist activists, and for that will be rewarded with electoral viability.

The whole point of these exercises is to actually win elections and have power.
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Old Mar 8th 2020, 5:43 am
  #129  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

I honestly don't think the same people would be complaining if Corbyn had won 40-something % of all votes cast and got into power.

On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
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Old Mar 8th 2020, 2:51 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I honestly don't think the same people would be complaining if Corbyn had won 40-something % of all votes cast and got into power.

On this thread, highlighting that only 3 governments have ever had 50%+ of the total vote yet we're acting like this latest government have cheated their way to power?
We've covered this already on this thread. Party political feeling and division have become so high that it's apparently (for many on this thread anyway) impossible to discuss the defects of the FPTP system without taking it as a complaint because the "wrong" party won. Nevertheless, irrespective of which party won, the numbers clearly state that the share of power that government we now have holds is disproportionately high to the number of people who voted for them, and that the share of power (almost none, and completely none for the parties with only a handful of MPs) that other parties now hold is also disproportionately low to the number of people who voted for them. That's just a fact. Obviously, whichever way an election goes there are going to be some people who are happy with that because they "won". In 2001, Labour gained a huge majority in Parliament, much, much larger than Johnson's, with a slightly smaller lead in vote share than Johnson got. I expect most Labour supporters were ok with that and I expect Tories complained then, but I wasn't on BE, and of course the poisonous brexit wasn't in the mix. That is largely what has created so much anger and division and what made this election different in terms of how people reacted to it.

But it isn't illegitimate to question the entire system, when you look at all these results. Perhaps the source of many of our problems is this combative, two-party system, where all other parties and the majority of the populace are effectively locked out of power and representation.
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Old Mar 9th 2020, 9:01 am
  #131  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
We've covered this already on this thread. Party political feeling and division have become so high that it's apparently (for many on this thread anyway) impossible to discuss the defects of the FPTP system without taking it as a complaint because the "wrong" party won. Nevertheless, irrespective of which party won, the numbers clearly state that the share of power that government we now have holds is disproportionately high to the number of people who voted for them, and that the share of power (almost none, and completely none for the parties with only a handful of MPs) that other parties now hold is also disproportionately low to the number of people who voted for them. That's just a fact. Obviously, whichever way an election goes there are going to be some people who are happy with that because they "won". In 2001, Labour gained a huge majority in Parliament, much, much larger than Johnson's, with a slightly smaller lead in vote share than Johnson got. I expect most Labour supporters were ok with that and I expect Tories complained then, but I wasn't on BE, and of course the poisonous brexit wasn't in the mix. That is largely what has created so much anger and division and what made this election different in terms of how people reacted to it.

But it isn't illegitimate to question the entire system, when you look at all these results. Perhaps the source of many of our problems is this combative, two-party system, where all other parties and the majority of the populace are effectively locked out of power and representation.
I think the problem is people are just going to be people and whinge regardless. It's human nature. If the format were different and Tories lost, they'd moan. If the format was this and Labour lost, they'd moan.

Everyone just moans about everything, it's what people do. There isn't a perfect system, it is what it is, play the game as it stands and try to make a result happen. Everyone faces the same rules.
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Old Mar 9th 2020, 12:02 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I think the problem is people are just going to be people and whinge regardless. It's human nature. If the format were different and Tories lost, they'd moan. If the format was this and Labour lost, they'd moan.

Everyone just moans about everything, it's what people do. There isn't a perfect system, it is what it is, play the game as it stands and try to make a result happen. Everyone faces the same rules.
I don't disagree that some people will always moan and whine, but the fact that this is the case should not stop us from attempting to create an electoral system that is more representative. It never is what it is - FPTP didn't come down the mountainside on tablets - it is what we have made it and if we managed to move on from rotten boroughs and some districts getting more than one MP, and voting rights dependent on property ownership or sex, we can move on from this. And we should.
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Old Mar 9th 2020, 12:06 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I don't disagree that some people will always moan and whine, but the fact that this is the case should not stop us from attempting to create an electoral system that is more representative. It never is what it is - FPTP didn't come down the mountainside on tablets - it is what we have made it and if we managed to move on from rotten boroughs and some districts getting more than one MP, and voting rights dependent on property ownership or sex, we can move on from this. And we should.
Yes, there's lots to move one from. The confusion and news around students voting in different places was concerning. I think things would be easier if it was mandatory to vote, like Australia - yes, it's only a fine but it's incentive enough for some people.
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Old Mar 9th 2020, 12:09 pm
  #134  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Yes, there's lots to move one from. The confusion and news around students voting in different places was concerning. I think things would be easier if it was mandatory to vote, like Australia - yes, it's only a fine but it's incentive enough for some people.
Sure, but that doesn't change the way in which are (aren't) represented. Safeguards and requirements are good, but the system they support needs to be functional for a modern representative democracy and the one we have clearly is no longer.
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Old Mar 9th 2020, 12:24 pm
  #135  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Sure, but that doesn't change the way in which are (aren't) represented. Safeguards and requirements are good, but the system they support needs to be functional for a modern representative democracy and the one we have clearly is no longer.
I think we do have a representative democracy. More constituencies voted for one party over another. The variables of each constituency cause a lot of upset. Size, numbers, borders etc...all reasons for people be frustrated. But would that change if the format of voting changed? Would we just scrap them or make them different? There's always going to be a line between areas and that's always going to upset someone. It's like VAR in football, armpit offsides are stupid but if the line was toes or noses, it would be equally stupid - but there needs to be a line.

I don't know of a proportional, locally represented voting system that ends up with the kind of result that people would get behind. Maybe I should invent one. I probably could at the weekend.
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