Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Old Feb 10th 2020, 4:47 pm
  #76  
Magnificently Withering
 
Oakvillian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,525
Oakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This actually leads to my next question - what would actually have to happen in order to change the UK system. Act(s) of Parliament? None of the big parties have any interest in that I don't think, despite Labour's current interest in destroying it self from within. Our fairly new Supreme Court? The Lords? How would such a thing even get started, and what precedent is there for it other than something from the 13th century that would probably involve chopping some people's heads off (as attractive as that seems sometimes).
Acts of Parliament. An Electoral reform Act, passed by the Commons and Lords and granted Royal Assent, is as simple (and as complicated) as it gets. Every time the Boundary Commission makes recommendations for constituency changes etc, those recommendations are passed into law, or not, through the usual process. It would be the same for a more fundamental review of the electoral system, I believe.

The process would be started by drawing up an Electoral Commission (there was one, set up by Tony Blair and headed by Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, in 1997-8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_(UK)), who would study the options and make recommendations. Jenkins made several such recommendations, mostly in favour of AV rather than STV which was dismissed as too complicated; these were all rejected by the Parliament of the day so no action was actually taken as a result. Therein lies the biggest challenge: there has to be the will in Parliament to change the system from within, which by definition will work against the interests of the sitting MPs of the two main parties, who benefit from the current FPTP system. The self-interest of MPs is legendary, and no better manifestation of that self interest is evident than an unwillingness to change the system that feeds their egos.
Oakvillian is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 4:53 pm
  #77  
Still mal-fonted. Why?
 
BuckinghamshireBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Brasschaat, Vlaanderen, België.
Posts: 3,624
BuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I can't comment on the Swiss system, I know FPTP as in the UK, the Party List system (as practiced in Portugal) and STV (as practiced in Ireland) - the system in the USA doesn't seem to have much to recommend it, either... However, from my visits to friends in Switzerland, I would think the federal organization and emphasis on local independence would have a large impact - which is not directly applicable to the UK - but that's also true of Irish-style STV, because there are many other differences that come into play.

I am ever amazed by how much Ireland got "right" in the reforms made post-independence, because the Irish governmental and legal system is still "based" on the UK one, just with a few tweaks - A constitution, but with a legal system comprising constitutional, statute and common law (which overcomes the dead weight of constitutional law as in Portugal); The retention of the bi-cameral system, but with the upper house a senate populated by nominees (a complicated system, but one which avoids knee-jerk mirrring of the lower house); and a President, who is elected, but has no executive power and acts like the crown in the UK (thus avoiding presidential edicts, etc - seem better to me!!)

So the adoption of STV wouldn't necessarily give the same outcome in the UK as in Ireland - just a more representative and fairer electoral system (in my opinion).
My comment on the Swiss system was slightly tongue in cheek, as a foreigner I could only participate at a Communal level. Switzerland also adopts a party list system, but a hybrid one, and being a Federation adds another layer of complexity which is completely irrelevant to the UK, or Eire, presumably Portugal as well.

I agree that STV wouldn't have necessarily the same outcome for the UK, and it may be seen as flawed in part, but heck, it's got to be way better than the tribal rot gnawing away currently in the UK.

I'm up for a fairer and more representative system as well - not that I'll ever get a chance for my voice to be heard in the UK - but as LiW asks, how to get there?

Edit: post crossed with Oakvillian's, directly above this one.

Last edited by BuckinghamshireBoy; Feb 10th 2020 at 5:01 pm. Reason: See post above this one.
BuckinghamshireBoy is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 4:55 pm
  #78  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Acts of Parliament. An Electoral reform Act, passed by the Commons and Lords and granted Royal Assent, is as simple (and as complicated) as it gets. Every time the Boundary Commission makes recommendations for constituency changes etc, those recommendations are passed into law, or not, through the usual process. It would be the same for a more fundamental review of the electoral system, I believe.

The process would be started by drawing up an Electoral Commission (there was one, set up by Tony Blair and headed by Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, in 1997-8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_(UK)), who would study the options and make recommendations. Jenkins made several such recommendations, mostly in favour of AV rather than STV which was dismissed as too complicated; these were all rejected by the Parliament of the day so no action was actually taken as a result. Therein lies the biggest challenge: there has to be the will in Parliament to change the system from within, which by definition will work against the interests of the sitting MPs of the two main parties, who benefit from the current FPTP system. The self-interest of MPs is legendary, and no better manifestation of that self interest is evident than an unwillingness to change the system that feeds their egos.
So essentially we need a revolution to get anything done at all. Just a small one.




In all seriousness though, I see nobody even close to power who wants to get that process started.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Feb 10th 2020 at 4:58 pm.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 4:59 pm
  #79  
Magnificently Withering
 
Oakvillian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,525
Oakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
So essentially we need a revolution to get anything done at all. Just a small one.
Indeed.

Oakvillian is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 5:05 pm
  #80  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 4,159
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
great song!
macliam is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 5:41 pm
  #81  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
great song!

+1
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 6:26 pm
  #82  
Magnificently Withering
 
Oakvillian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,525
Oakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Can I just say how nice it is to have a sensible thread with (mostly) grown-up conversations about an interesting political subject? Even the digressions (into Ireland, Switzerland, and further afield) have been mostly pertinent to the topic at hand and haven't devolved into mud-slinging and partisanship.
Oakvillian is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 6:33 pm
  #83  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Can I just say how nice it is to have a sensible thread with (mostly) grown-up conversations about an interesting political subject? Even the digressions (into Ireland, Switzerland, and further afield) have been mostly pertinent to the topic at hand and haven't devolved into mud-slinging and partisanship.

Maybe we need a special "Sensible Thread" sub-forum on BE.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 6:53 pm
  #84  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 4,159
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Can I just say how nice it is to have a sensible thread with (mostly) grown-up conversations about an interesting political subject? Even the digressions (into Ireland, Switzerland, and further afield) have been mostly pertinent to the topic at hand and haven't devolved into mud-slinging and partisanship.
Yes, given I've skin in the game on three of those systems, I'm interested to see other people's take on things.
macliam is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 7:38 pm
  #85  
Heading for Poppyland
 
robin1234's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 10,393
robin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Maybe we need a special "Sensible Thread" sub-forum on BE.
robin1234 is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 8:49 pm
  #86  
Still mal-fonted. Why?
 
BuckinghamshireBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Brasschaat, Vlaanderen, België.
Posts: 3,624
BuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
Can I just say how nice it is to have a sensible thread with (mostly) grown-up conversations about an interesting political subject? Even the digressions (into Ireland, Switzerland, and further afield) have been mostly pertinent to the topic at hand and haven't devolved into mud-slinging and partisanship.
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Maybe we need a special "Sensible Thread" sub-forum on BE.
Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Yes, given I've skin in the game on three of those systems, I'm interested to see other people's take on things.
Digression, mea culpa.

That said, I really do like the music in here.
BuckinghamshireBoy is offline  
Old Feb 10th 2020, 10:16 pm
  #87  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 4,159
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy View Post
Digression, mea culpa.

That said, I really do like the music in here.
No, you're good - you can't really have a discussion on changing from the UKs current "system" without having some view of the alternatives.

Truth is, no system is perfect - but at least some try to keep dangerous toys out of the hands of childish incumbents


Last edited by macliam; Feb 10th 2020 at 10:19 pm.
macliam is offline  
Old Feb 11th 2020, 8:42 am
  #88  
idealist
 
stevenglish1's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,764
stevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Not sure if this has been said, but it's only losers in an election that ever call for electoral reform, usually because they got lots of votes and not very many seats, therefore it won't happen. There's one team in the premiership that hasn't complained about VAR this season, they're romping home with it and see no need to call the grapes sour.

Last edited by stevenglish1; Feb 11th 2020 at 8:49 am.
stevenglish1 is offline  
Old Feb 11th 2020, 2:07 pm
  #89  
Magnificently Withering
 
Oakvillian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,525
Oakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond reputeOakvillian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Not sure if this has been said, but it's only losers in an election that ever call for electoral reform, usually because they got lots of votes and not very many seats, therefore it won't happen. There's one team in the premiership that hasn't complained about VAR this season, they're romping home with it and see no need to call the grapes sour.
...and, right on cue, the tone is lowered.

The Electoral Reform Society has been around since 1884, and has been pushing for changes in the way the electoral system in the UK works for pretty much its entire existence, through governments of all political colours. To reduce this discussion to the level of "it's only ever the losers who complain about the rules" is facile, unhelpful, and frankly just plain wrong.
Oakvillian is offline  
Old Feb 11th 2020, 4:22 pm
  #90  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 4,159
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Not sure if this has been said, but it's only losers in an election that ever call for electoral reform, usually because they got lots of votes and not very many seats, therefore it won't happen. There's one team in the premiership that hasn't complained about VAR this season, they're romping home with it and see no need to call the grapes sour.
Not sure if it has been said, but it's only people who've been tortured who complain about human rights.......
macliam is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.