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Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Old Feb 1st 2020, 6:29 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
I'm afraid that you are viewing it simply from a losers point of view. In was you hadn't noticed the party with the most votes forms the Government. Has been like that for some time, certainly before you were born!!!! Get over it, you lost!
Oh I noticed the stuff about the party with the most votes. Why are you ignoring the point about the party that got the greater number of increased votes losing seats? That's the issue you seem incapable of addressing.

The number of seats is not represented by the number of votes. You're simplifying it with garbage about whingeing losers.

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Old Feb 1st 2020, 6:30 pm
  #47  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Proporcional representation means you end up with a government that can't decide anything. Is your objection to the present system because you don't like who won the election?
Otherwise known as compromise. Heard of that?
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 6:49 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
What do you think of the citizen's assembly idea of Grayling? They use them in Ireland for referenda at least, I think. It seems a lot more inclusive, and a lot more sane.
I had only skip-read the article that you posted the link to last evening, but have just had a deeper look. There's some well thought through points:
The Remain cause came very close to succeeding in November 2019 - very, very close. The opposition parties made a fatal error in agreeing to a general election. They could have forced a government of national unity and held a referendum on EU membership, to get that question completely out of the way so that the country could reboot.
But that one will just re-ignite the spear/rock chucking gloaters, so best move on. Oh look, they're in already...

Moving on.
How could opposition parties ignore the demands and pressure of citizens' assemblies? They will be a crucial part of the base for the parties' own support. Moreover, the continued insistence on a final say provides the opposition parties with a reason to cooperate and to benefit from the fact that such an option has ever-growing majority support in the country (remember demographics!), a factor that no intelligent opposition politician could overlook even if he or she did not care about the principles at stake.
That's good.

But would "the second party" buy in? Until they do, then the electoral system is destined to remain flawed, imo.

I'll have another read of the article tomorrow.

@GeniB it's never too late...

Last edited by BuckinghamshireBoy; Feb 1st 2020 at 7:02 pm.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 7:09 pm
  #49  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Proporcional representation means you end up with a government that can't decide anything. Is your objection to the present system because you don't like who won the election?
a) I need you to substantiate your first statement

b) No, my objections are as previously stated, several times. Have another read.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 10:59 pm
  #50  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
FPTP benefits both big parties (or did when we had two). It was never in the Conservative nor Labour interests to change it.

Wasn't there a referendum on changing it fairly recently which resulted in no change?
As Labour hasn't been in power long enough or with enough security at any one time, I doubt they ever had the confidence to want to implement it.. We are a one party country now .No real opposition .Nothing will change unless the people change it ..Thats what the establishment most fears .We do have the power to do it. But no leader and no direction to go in.other than the one chosen for us. I would love to have an answer to this The establishment thrives on the old divide and rule theory. Look how well it worked for them in Brexit.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 11:15 pm
  #51  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
As Labour hasn't been in power long enough or with enough security at any one time, I doubt they ever had the confidence to want to implement it.. We are a one party country now .No real opposition .Nothing will change unless the people change it ..Thats what the establishment most fears .We do have the power to do it. But no leader and no direction to go in.other than the one chosen for us. I would love to have an answer to this The establishment thrives on the old divide and rule theory. Look how well it worked for them in Brexit.
But the Establishment failed with Brexit, so sort of defeats your case.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 12:49 am
  #52  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

The problem here remains that radical posters are still in denial about the causes of the election defeat. They do not want to have to undergo any sort of introspection, or adjust policies to suit a larger number of people . . . and admitting what happened, means to also admit their read of the landscape was wrong almost to an astonishing degree and they feel they are too smart to have been that wrong. So, therefore, they want to make the argument that Labour and the New Democrats didn't "lose," they were just unfairly held back by an unfair system. They hope to achieve their intended result by manipulating election rules instead.

I think several of us predicted this back before the election, when certain posters were barracking on about hung parliaments when the polls all showed anything but.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 5:38 am
  #53  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
This appears to have gone over your head.

It's not about you.

It's about whether the current rather odd voting system and its often anomalous results can be improved.

It's debated after most elections - no matter who wins or loses.
Over my head, not at all. For example it wasn't debated after the last election. Sure, by some contributors to sites like this but that is just whinging!!! In fact it hasn't been seriously discussed anywhere for a long time.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 8:52 am
  #54  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
This appears to have gone over your head.

It's not about you.

It's about whether the current rather odd voting system and its often anomalous results can be improved.

It's debated after most elections - no matter who wins or loses.
I'm sorry, what are the anomalous results?

There is only one leader in the last 50 years who has led the Labour Party to victory. Yet, bizarrely, instead of being revered, that leader is reviled and ostracized by party faithful.

Nor were those victories flukes. They were smashing landslides that resulted in huge majorities greater than anything the Tories have ever gotten in the modern era. When was the last time the Conservatives won multiple general elections with 400+ seats? During Blair's three wins they never even broke through 200.

The template for big Labour wins is there, and has proven durable over multiple elections. Why isn't that template ever copied? Every other major political party in the West takes a winning formula and at least tries to replicate it. Sometimes I think UK Labour is actually trying to lose.

It would actually be stupid of the left to change the current system, since Blair proved that Labour can compete in more of the country than the Tories can.

Labour does not need to change the rules to win (since, really, that is what this thread is about). It needs to tailor its policies to a big tent of the electorate, choose a leader with broad cross-party appeal (such people should be viewed as electoral assets, instead of how they are viewed now, as weaknesses to be treated with suspicion), and take the spotlight away from the radicals - by making the party climate so hostile to extremist strains of thought that those people just leave, preferably to the Liberal Democrats. They can go there, hopefully as loudly and publicly as possible, and strangle that party's growth.

Carcajou's three-step plan for a viable UK Labour Party that can actually hold government more than once a half-century. You're welcome.

Last edited by carcajou; Feb 2nd 2020 at 9:02 am.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 8:57 am
  #55  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Why are you talking abut the labour party?
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 9:10 am
  #56  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Over my head, not at all. For example it wasn't debated after the last election. Sure, by some contributors to sites like this but that is just whinging!!! In fact it hasn't been seriously discussed anywhere for a long time.
It is continuously debated - look up The Electoral Reform Society


We campaign for your democratic rights and a democracy fit for the 21st century. We work across the political divide with all the parties and civil society to put voters at the heart of British politics.
It is debated to the extent that a referendum on the subject was held on the issue in 2011.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 9:16 am
  #57  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

I've never been a fan of PR or the compromises that it entails. Calls for it to be introduced seem to be a familiar refrain these days from people who insist that losers in FPTP votes are somehow entitled to something.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 9:40 am
  #58  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
I've never been a fan of PR or the compromises that it entails. Calls for it to be introduced seem to be a familiar refrain these days from people who insist that losers in FPTP votes are somehow entitled to something.
Looking at those good results the SNP gets, vs. what the LibDems get, makes me think all LibDem voters should put their heads together and move to one region of the country, they’d get 40 or 50 seats.

SW of a line between IoW and Gloucester, for instance?
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 9:51 am
  #59  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
It is a total farce that we don't have proportional representation but the government likes it that way. It would take some huge protests by the people to change it...
Proportional representation is government by a body that is representative of the electorate.

First past the post is government by the winners of a competition.

The British people like it that way. Why should they protest? They were given the opportunity to have PR in a referendum in 2011, and they voted overwhelmingly against (two-thirds to one-third).

Competition is deeply rooted in the British psyche. The concept of government by consensus is an anathema.
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Old Feb 2nd 2020, 10:03 am
  #60  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

What about the party list system, as in Israel? As I understand it, it would mean the end of geographically based constituencies. That would be a major change. Also, there are incentives for parties to successively split, so you end up with too many parties.

I realize that Israel has some serious issues to deal with in terms of forming effective administrations, and then governing effectively, but it’s not clear to what extent those are Israel-specific problems, or weaknesses in the party-list system..
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