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Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:52 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
To be set on an absolute "winning majority" is the very essence of the FPTP system. This kind of majority is not prerequisite of democracy, rather the contrary I would have thought. I'm not at all sure how you got to "only one party" from "proportional representation" though.

Here, for example, is how Ireland does it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/prop...works-1.579519

Citizens assemblies are also an interesting idea to me.
Thanks for the link.

I'd agree with the following that STV has some flaws...

Although distributing seats to parties in a way that reflects pretty closely their actual vote share, STV does so less accurately than a truly proportional list system, such as Israel’s national list, or a constituency/regionally based partial top-up list system, such as Germany’s.
... but it has to be way better than the unrepresentative system currently in use in the UK, a starter for a true democracy, maybe.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:31 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

more than 70% of the total British electorate did not vote for the Conservatives.
Originally Posted by chawkins99 View Post
Let's take your numbers to the other extreme.

more than 80% of the total British electorate did not vote for Labour
So we get the government that the fewest people were against. Doesn't sound very sensible.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:34 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Of course. That brings me back to the 'whinging' comment. people who lose whatever the vote is want reform. Human nature I suppose. personally I'm quite happy with. the status quo.
You're clearly viewing this as a Conservative vs Labour issue.

Did you not notice this part? Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:41 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
So we get the government that the fewest people were against. Doesn't sound very sensible.
Except we didn't really. We got the government that most people were against if you total up all the votes that were not conservative.


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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:42 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy View Post
Thanks for the link.

I'd agree with the following that STV has some flaws...



... but it has to be way better than the unrepresentative system currently in use in the UK, a starter for a true democracy, maybe.

Yes, the different ways of doing proportional representation make my head hurt, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to come up with something better than what we have.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:43 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Except we didn't really. We got the government that most people were against if you total up all the votes that were not conservative.
Yeah, I didn't mean it literally...just in the context of the response.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:45 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Yeah, I didn't mean it literally...just in the context of the response.
Sure.

But some people don't seem to understand just how unrepresentative our system of government is, irrespective of the issues of the day.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:52 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
But some people don't seem to understand just how unrepresentative our system of government is, irrespective of the issues of the day.
I'm waiting to see if KJMW responds to that bit I isolated about LibDems getting fewer seats despite a fourfold increase in votes compared to that which gained 80 seats.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 8:03 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Perhaps proportional representation is what is needed to break the confrontational two-party system.

It might also open up more possibilities for the kind of citizen's assemblies that Grayling refers to.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 4:36 am
  #40  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
You're clearly viewing this as a Conservative vs Labour issue.

Did you not notice this part? Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"
I'm afraid that you are viewing it simply from a losers point of view. In was you hadn't noticed the party with the most votes forms the Government. Has been like that for some time, certainly before you were born!!!! Get over it, you lost!
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 4:38 am
  #41  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Perhaps proportional representation is what is needed to break the confrontational two-party system.

It might also open up more possibilities for the kind of citizen's assemblies that Grayling refers to.
Proporcional representation means you end up with a government that can't decide anything. Is your objection to the present system because you don't like who won the election?
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 4:31 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Stop that at once It must be possible to have a sensible conversation. Maybe I should have put it in the Lounge.
Noooooo I got screamed at in the lounge for trying to discuss ( sensible and calmly ) your thoughts on why the Holocaust happened
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 4:38 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

To answer your question on proportional representation I would just say.. TOO LATE... Various governments have fiddled with our so called Democracy over decades Moving county boundaries and borders ,etc, The population have allowed it to happen , I have seen my county of Lancashire virtually halved in size ,shoved into metropolitan boroughs etc. It is a total farce that we don't have proportional representation but the government likes it that way. It would take some huge protests by the people to change it...and why would southern counties who traditionally vote Conservative, and enjoy the benefits thereof ,do anything to support such a move ?
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 5:04 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Of course. That brings me back to the 'whinging' comment. people who lose whatever the vote is want reform. Human nature I suppose. personally I'm quite happy with. the status quo.
This appears to have gone over your head.

It's not about you.

It's about whether the current rather odd voting system and its often anomalous results can be improved.

It's debated after most elections - no matter who wins or loses.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 5:08 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
To answer your question on proportional representation I would just say.. TOO LATE... Various governments have fiddled with our so called Democracy over decades Moving county boundaries and borders ,etc, The population have allowed it to happen , I have seen my county of Lancashire virtually halved in size ,shoved into metropolitan boroughs etc. It is a total farce that we don't have proportional representation but the government likes it that way. It would take some huge protests by the people to change it...and why would southern counties who traditionally vote Conservative, and enjoy the benefits thereof ,do anything to support such a move ?
FPTP benefits both big parties (or did when we had two). It was never in the Conservative nor Labour interests to change it.

Wasn't there a referendum on changing it fairly recently which resulted in no change?
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