Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:43 pm
  #16  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 362
KJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Begs the question if Progressive policies are compatible with Democracy? Historically that has not been the case.
I'm sorry but my secondary modern education cannot cope with that! Can you put it in language a dim person like me can understand?
KJMW is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:45 pm
  #17  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Indeed, an interesting discussion is most desirable but when an obvious bias is introduced an 'interesting' discussion becomes redundant.
What is the bias? The numbers are just maths. There they are, irrespective of whatever the issues of the day might be.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:46 pm
  #18  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 362
KJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
What is the bias? The numbers are just maths. There they are, irrespective of whatever the issues of the day might be.
The bias is in the argument for reform to the voting system
KJMW is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:49 pm
  #19  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
The bias is in the argument for reform to the voting system
Are you referring to the fact that I think it needs reform? Personally, I don't see that as a bias. It's just my opinion based on what happens with FPTP.

What exactly do you mean?
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:52 pm
  #20  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 362
KJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Are you referring to the fact that I think it needs reform? Personally, I don't see that as a bias. It's just my opinion based on what happens with FPTP.

What exactly do you mean?
Of course. That brings me back to the 'whinging' comment. people who lose whatever the vote is want reform. Human nature I suppose. personally I'm quite happy with. the status quo.
KJMW is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:53 pm
  #21  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Of course. That brings me back to the 'whinging' comment. people who lose whatever the vote is want reform. Human nature I suppose. personally I'm quite happy with. the status quo.
So you feel that the system that we have fairly represents the population's opinions and wishes, despite the numbers quoted?

I am referring to these numbers:

""The turnout in the 2019 election was 67.3%, which on the foregoing numbers means that more than 70% of the total British electorate did not vote for the Conservatives. Because of the dramatically distorting effect of the first past the post (FPTP) electoral system the Conservative Party nevertheless 'won' a majority of 80 seats in the House of Commons, having been in a minority of 41 in the previous parliament
The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:00 pm
  #22  
Still mal-fonted. Why?
 
BuckinghamshireBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Brasschaat, Vlaanderen, België.
Posts: 3,624
BuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
What do you think of the citizen's assembly idea of Grayling? They use them in Ireland for referenda at least, I think. It seems a lot more inclusive, and a lot more sane.

This, for example, can't be good for anyone except the entrenched powers:

"The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"
Admittedly I am not that familiar with Grayling's ideas. I haven't had a good look (since yonks ago), but I'm not seeing a way to get some kind of reform in place whilst the current mentality (perfectly exemplified in post #12) is in place.

Shooting from the hip, I would suggest that constituency boundaries would need to be revisited. Therein lies the risk of exaggerating the North-South divide. So, why these divisions based on where one resides?

As a long time outsider (with no vote anyway) I don't see a way of breaking the the 'two party' mentality, which basically comes down to "who do you want to be the next PM?"

There will be better days.
BuckinghamshireBoy is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:02 pm
  #23  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 362
KJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
So you feel that the system that we have fairly represents the population's opinions and wishes, despite the numbers quoted?

I am referring to these numbers:

""The turnout in the 2019 election was 67.3%, which on the foregoing numbers means that more than 70% of the total British electorate did not vote for the Conservatives. Because of the dramatically distorting effect of the first past the post (FPTP) electoral system the Conservative Party nevertheless 'won' a majority of 80 seats in the House of Commons, having been in a minority of 41 in the previous parliament
The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"
The whole point is that you can vote, or not, for a party of your choice. The party which gains the most votes is the winner. The only way there can be a 'majority' in your argument is if there is only one party. Not desirable in a democracy.
KJMW is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:04 pm
  #24  
Dedicated European
 
Joined: Mar 2017
Location: Buda
Posts: 5,626
Expatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond reputeExpatrick has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Of course. That brings me back to the 'whinging' comment. people who lose whatever the vote is want reform. Human nature I suppose. personally I'm quite happy with. the status quo.
Of course you are, because you got the results you wanted - proving the original premise.
Expatrick is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:08 pm
  #25  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2015
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 1,182
chawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
None of which addresses my actual question. Let me pull that out for you again.

First, from the article:

"The turnout in the 2019 election was 67.3%, which on the foregoing numbers means that more than 70% of the total British electorate did not vote for the Conservatives. Because of the dramatically distorting effect of the first past the post (FPTP) electoral system the Conservative Party nevertheless 'won' a majority of 80 seats in the House of Commons, having been in a minority of 41 in the previous parliament
The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"

Then, my question:
Looking at this, to me there is no way in hell that what we have in government is in any way representative of the votes or wishes of the people of the country, without even taking into account the significant number of people so disconnected from the system that governs them that they don't vote at all. And such things as electing the whole HOL won't help if it's no more representative than what we have now. So, thinking about a complete redo and how that might come about, what do people think about the citizens assemblies that Grayling discusses, for example. What would people like to see, and how?


If there is no interest in an interesting discussion on the topic, so be it. The thread isn't helped by half of the quote being removed, either. Reading the whole column that I linked would be helpful.
Let's take your numbers to the other extreme.

more than 80% of the total British electorate did not vote for Labour
chawkins99 is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:14 pm
  #26  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,114
Bipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond reputeBipat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Are you referring to the fact that I think it needs reform? Personally, I don't see that as a bias. It's just my opinion based on what happens with FPTP.What exactly do you mean?
I personally think it needs reform. The local constituency MP may be good for the town but his/her party, in a voters view, not the best for the country.
Some form of proportional representation is needed. However the 2011 Alternative Vote Referendum did not succeed (I voted for it).

Bipat is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:16 pm
  #27  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 362
KJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond reputeKJMW has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Of course you are, because you got the results you wanted - proving the original premise.
I'm sorry but you shouldn't apply your attitude to me. I do think objectively.
KJMW is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:33 pm
  #28  
Still mal-fonted. Why?
 
BuckinghamshireBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Brasschaat, Vlaanderen, België.
Posts: 3,624
BuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond reputeBuckinghamshireBoy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

So... the FPTP idea is detrimental to true democracy, other than when viewed by those of the tribalist mindset?

This is a reasonably good starting point. Where people get elected on a minority, the system that allows it can hardly be described as true democracy.
BuckinghamshireBoy is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:40 pm
  #29  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I personally think it needs reform. The local constituency MP may be good for the town but his/her party, in a voters view, not the best for the country.
Some form of proportional representation is needed. However the 2011 Alternative Vote Referendum did not succeed (I voted for it).

I would agree. We have too large a percentage of the population who, despite casting a vote, has zero effective representation. That can't be good for involvement in our process of government, the issues, or anything else much. FPTP is a system that carries HOP conflict directly within it. Proportional representation of some kind would, I think, force more collaboration.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:44 pm
  #30  
Thread Starter
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Out of place
Posts: 51,621
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
The whole point is that you can vote, or not, for a party of your choice. The party which gains the most votes is the winner. The only way there can be a 'majority' in your argument is if there is only one party. Not desirable in a democracy.

To be set on an absolute "winning majority" is the very essence of the FPTP system. This kind of majority is not prerequisite of democracy, rather the contrary I would have thought. I'm not at all sure how you got to "only one party" from "proportional representation" though.

Here, for example, is how Ireland does it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/prop...works-1.579519

Citizens assemblies are also an interesting idea to me.
Lion in Winter is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.