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-   -   Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/sensible-thread-change-uk-constitutional-electoral-system-930759/)

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 2:05 pm

Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 
So yesterday, I posted this:

https://britishexpats.com/forum/take.../#post12798920

And then today I read this, by A.C. Grayling. These are excerpts. The whole thing is linked, but the article is talking about brexit whereas I think it might be a good time to have a discussion about representative democracy in the UK in general and the need for reform. So there are references to brexit in this excerpt but as an illustration of the issue only - it's not abut brexit itself. I'm putting it in another thread in the (hopefully not vain) hope that it won't become yet another thread for tribalism. I'm interested in what people think we can do to change our system altogether. Please and thank you:

"In the general election of December 2019 the number of people who voted for parties supporting Remain or at least a second referendum numbered 16.5 million. The combined figure for the Conservative Party, the Brexit Party and UKIP totalled 14.7 million.

This suggests a split of 53% Remain/ second referendum as against 47% pro-Brexit, but I suspect that the figure likely 55% or more versus 45% or less because of the Corbyn factor: that is, a number of people decided that Brexit is the lesser evil in comparison to a Corbyn-led government. Doorstep experience by canvassers and post-election enquiry bears this out."

<<<snip>>>


Looking at this, to me there is no way in hell that what we have in government is in any way representative of the votes or wishes of the people of the country, without even taking into account the significant number of people so disconnected from the system that governs them that they don't vote at all. And such things as electing the whole HOL won't help if it's no more representative than what we have now. So, thinking about a complete redo and how that might come about, what do people think about the citizens assemblies that Grayling discusses, for example. What would people like to see, and how?

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...away-1-6457709



Expatrick Jan 31st 2020 4:34 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 
So there I was, hoping that at 23:59 CET today all brexit threads would quietly disappear and BE life could start to resemble some sort of normality - and what do you do, but start a thread that, despite your pleading,, will descend into a tribal us & them battle, featuring the same old protagonists & attitudes! :lol:

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12799275)
So there I was, hoping that at 23:59 CET today all brexit threads would quietly disappear and BE life could start to resemble some sort of normality - and what do you do, but start a thread that, despite your pleading,, will descend into a tribal us & them battle, featuring the same old protagonists & attitudes! :lol:


Stop that at once :frown: It must be possible to have a sensible conversation. Maybe I should have put it in the Lounge.


Expatrick Jan 31st 2020 4:44 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12799278)
Stop that at once :frown: It must be possible to have a sensible conversation. Maybe I should have put it in the Lounge.

Que sera, sera!

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 4:45 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12799280)
Que sera, sera!

No pasaran?

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 4:46 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 
Apparently I've committed copyright infringement? I have no idea why - I've credited the author by name in my post and provided the link to the article.

Oh well, let's just consign the whole thing to the dustbin then.

Expatrick Jan 31st 2020 4:48 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12799283)
Apparently I've committed copyright infringement? I have no idea why - I've credited the author by name in my post and provided the link to the article.

Oh well, let's just consign the whole thing to the dustbin then.

Ooops! Well, as we say here "a fekete levesbe megyünk" (into the black soup we go).

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 4:50 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12799285)
"a fekete levesbe megyünk" (into the black soup we go).


Are we talking about the British system of government or something else?

BuckinghamshireBoy Jan 31st 2020 4:55 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12799278)
Stop that at once :frown: It must be possible to have a sensible conversation. Maybe I should have put it in the Lounge.

No, I think that this is well placed.

How best to undo the tribalism rampant in the UK? In a way acceptable to the governing tribalists and also understandable by the average person in the field/dole queue.

I spent a year looking at potential political reform in the UK back in the '70s, but I can't seem to find my notes. :(

Boiler Jan 31st 2020 5:02 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 
The important this is to win the argument, not the vote.

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 5:04 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy (Post 12799289)
No, I think that this is well placed.

How best to undo the tribalism rampant in the UK? In a way acceptable to the governing tribalists and also understandable by the average person in the field/dole queue.

I spent a year looking at potential political reform in the UK back in the '70s, but I can't seem to find my notes. :(


What do you think of the citizen's assembly idea of Grayling? They use them in Ireland for referenda at least, I think. It seems a lot more inclusive, and a lot more sane.

This, for example, can't be good for anyone except the entrenched powers:

"The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"

KJMW Jan 31st 2020 5:31 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12799177)
So yesterday, I posted this:

https://britishexpats.com/forum/take.../#post12798920

And then today I read this, by A.C. Grayling. These are excerpts. The whole thing is linked, but the article is talking about brexit whereas I think it might be a good time to have a discussion about representative democracy in the UK in general and the need for reform. So there are references to brexit in this excerpt but as an illustration of the issue only - it's not abut brexit itself. I'm putting it in another thread in the (hopefully not vain) hope that it won't become yet another thread for tribalism. I'm interested in what people think we can do to change our system altogether. Please and thank you:

"In the general election of December 2019 the number of people who voted for parties supporting Remain or at least a second referendum numbered 16.5 million. The combined figure for the Conservative Party, the Brexit Party and UKIP totalled 14.7 million.

This suggests a split of 53% Remain/ second referendum as against 47% pro-Brexit, but I suspect that the figure likely 55% or more versus 45% or less because of the Corbyn factor: that is, a number of people decided that Brexit is the lesser evil in comparison to a Corbyn-led government. Doorstep experience by canvassers and post-election enquiry bears this out."

<<<snip>>>


Looking at this, to me there is no way in hell that what we have in government is in any way representative of the votes or wishes of the people of the country, without even taking into account the significant number of people so disconnected from the system that governs them that they don't vote at all. And such things as electing the whole HOL won't help if it's no more representative than what we have now. So, thinking about a complete redo and how that might come about, what do people think about the citizens assemblies that Grayling discusses, for example. What would people like to see, and how?

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...away-1-6457709

Nothing but continuous whinging. An election is called. People can vote or not vote. Those who do vote have to accept that the majority in that vote have won whatever the issue is. It's called democracy. People can play with figures as much as they want, can whinge, try to manipulate. statistics but the bottom line is the majority in any vote must have their democratic way; otherwise what is the point?

Lion in Winter Jan 31st 2020 5:37 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by KJMW (Post 12799319)
Nothing but continuous whinging. An election is called. People can vote or not vote. Those who do vote have to accept that the majority in that vote have won whatever the issue is. It's called democracy. People can play with figures as much as they want, can whinge, try to manipulate. statistics but the bottom line is the majority in any vote must have their democratic way; otherwise what is the point?

None of which addresses my actual question. Let me pull that out for you again.

First, from the article:

"The turnout in the 2019 election was 67.3%, which on the foregoing numbers means that more than 70% of the total British electorate did not vote for the Conservatives. Because of the dramatically distorting effect of the first past the post (FPTP) electoral system the Conservative Party nevertheless 'won' a majority of 80 seats in the House of Commons, having been in a minority of 41 in the previous parliament
The Conservatives gained an extra 330,000 voters in 2019 as against their 2017 total. Yet in 2017 the result was a hung parliament, while in 2019 this modest number of extra voters delivered an 80-seat majority to the Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats gained an extra 1.3 million votes, yet ended up with one fewer seat. Note this: a third of a million extra votes got the Conservatives an 80-seat majority, while 1.3 million extra votes got the Liberal Democrats one fewer seat"

Then, my question:
Looking at this, to me there is no way in hell that what we have in government is in any way representative of the votes or wishes of the people of the country, without even taking into account the significant number of people so disconnected from the system that governs them that they don't vote at all. And such things as electing the whole HOL won't help if it's no more representative than what we have now. So, thinking about a complete redo and how that might come about, what do people think about the citizens assemblies that Grayling discusses, for example. What would people like to see, and how?


If there is no interest in an interesting discussion on the topic, so be it. The thread isn't helped by half of the quote being removed, either. Reading the whole column that I linked would be helpful.

Boiler Jan 31st 2020 5:39 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by KJMW (Post 12799319)
Nothing but continuous whinging. An election is called. People can vote or not vote. Those who do vote have to accept that the majority in that vote have won whatever the issue is. It's called democracy. People can play with figures as much as they want, can whinge, try to manipulate. statistics but the bottom line is the majority in any vote must have their democratic way; otherwise what is the point?

Begs the question if Progressive policies are compatible with Democracy? Historically that has not been the case.

KJMW Jan 31st 2020 5:39 pm

Re: Sensible thread on change of UK constitutional and electoral system
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12799322)
None of which addresses my actual question.

If there is no interest in an interesting discussion on the topic, so be it.

Indeed, an interesting discussion is most desirable but when an obvious bias is introduced an 'interesting' discussion becomes redundant.


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