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"Red Tape" saves lives

"Red Tape" saves lives

Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:00 pm
  #16  
 
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Some branches do, some don't. It's not even consistent in different branches of the same bank chain.

A local branch of Lloyds had a refit, and they tookout all the counters with screens.. Another's refit kept the screens.
Portsmouth - Barclays and Nat West no screens, Post Office with screens.
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Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:00 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
FWIW I don't think I have seen a screen at a bank in the US, where the risk of being shot is obviously much higher than in the UK, at least not since I left NY, but I am not sure if that is an NC thing, a small town thing, or just the practice at the banks I frequent.
Unscreened here too.

Did I see UK bus drivers being screened in now? Not sure where I saw that. TV?
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Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:04 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Unscreened here too.

Did I see UK bus drivers being screened in now? Not sure where I saw that. TV?
Translink in Vancouver I believe is starting to put barriers up around bus drivers, can't blame them really more than one driver has been spit on or assaulted. Its a well paid job, but man it must be a high stress job dealing with not only traffic but the crazy passengers, specially if you get to drive the 14, 16 or 20, those 3 lines are the most interesting/scary/crazy bus lines I have been on, sometimes they can be a bar on wheels, even saw someone shoot heroin on the 20 once.
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Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:16 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Unscreened here too.

Did I see UK bus drivers being screened in now? Not sure where I saw that. TV?
In the UK? That was a thing in the 80's and 90's, but like bank screens, I think they have been going away.
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Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:41 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
They are in my local Barclays and NatWest branches. Yes, there'll be a floorwalker who will try to steer you towards an ATM if you want to deposit funds, but if you insist on seeing a real person then they'll deal with you at a podium and take your cash there.
Made me curious now. I will have to carry out my own survey
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Old Jan 20th 2020, 8:42 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
In the UK? That was a thing in the 80's and 90's, but like bank screens, I think they have been going away.
Think it depends where you are. In London all drivers sit behind screens.
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Old Jan 21st 2020, 8:54 am
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
Errr Dave, we don't have them in the UK either.

We do at HSBC in Kendal
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Old Jan 21st 2020, 8:56 am
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
Several years. Most banks are like open plan offices now. Something to do with appearing friendlier and more approachable.

Post Offices, at least major ones, still have screens; though they aren't the full plate glass jobs of yesteryear.
I think its to do with having NO staff and NO money in them now.,....
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 6:40 am
  #24  
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

H&S has a place as long as it is not OTT.

I work in heavy civils and there is a real chance of injury and fatalities.... we've had a handfull of accidents leading to death (on my sites) in the last decade. Ironically one was caused by the workers high vis jacket getting caught in the rotating barrel of a readymix truck.

The problem is when you have a company that uses H&S to cover their arse rather than to protect their staff.

Sometimes ours can be so ridiculous that its essentially stops you from doing your job as the people putting the stipulations in place don't understand the requirements of the task or the experience / ability of the worker to undertake it. They just see the task as 'dangerous' without appreciating that a) the people allocated to undertake the task a specialists who are highly experienced in undertaking such tasks, b) the specialists are well aware of the risks and take actions to mitigate against them and c) if the task isn't done then the project can't proceed.

So no I don't have an issues with H&S as long as it makes sense. The experience and ability of a H&S wanker to think logically can make a massive difference to a project. However, most are just failed engineers and wannabe policemen.
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 1:45 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by jam25mack View Post
H&S has a place as long as it is not OTT.
Doubtless, though, there will be those who consider, say, safety guards on various bits of machinery that slow down production to be OTT because it's not their fingers at risk. An episode of Shine on Harvey Moon stayed with me for a very long time
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by jam25mack View Post
H&S has a place as long as it is not OTT.

I work in heavy civils and there is a real chance of injury and fatalities.... we've had a handfull of accidents leading to death (on my sites) in the last decade. Ironically one was caused by the workers high vis jacket getting caught in the rotating barrel of a readymix truck.

The problem is when you have a company that uses H&S to cover their arse rather than to protect their staff.

Sometimes ours can be so ridiculous that its essentially stops you from doing your job as the people putting the stipulations in place don't understand the requirements of the task or the experience / ability of the worker to undertake it. They just see the task as 'dangerous' without appreciating that a) the people allocated to undertake the task a specialists who are highly experienced in undertaking such tasks, b) the specialists are well aware of the risks and take actions to mitigate against them and c) if the task isn't done then the project can't proceed.

So no I don't have an issues with H&S as long as it makes sense. The experience and ability of a H&S wanker to think logically can make a massive difference to a project. However, most are just failed engineers and wannabe policemen.
This is an eminently sensible post, but H&S intrudes, and arguably rightly so, when workers are put at risk because of their lack of relevant experience, skills or knowledge. IMO the foreman should have the responsibility, not to mention the relevant knowledge and experience, to supervise the project and to delegate tasks based on the actual skills and experience of each worker, not based on some arbitrary seniority assigned by HR. It's a long time since I worked in an industrial setting, but I was, on occasion, assigned tasks as a temporary employee that were supposed to be reserved for permanent employees, because some permanent employees lacked the abilities to be entrusted with the equipment - specifically the foreman didn't trust them with the forklifts, but did tell me to operate them for some tasks even though I had not been formally trained and certified to do so. I am sure that H&S would have objected to the foreman exercising his judgment.
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 6:22 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
This is an eminently sensible post, but H&S intrudes, and arguably rightly so, when workers are put at risk because of their lack of relevant experience, skills or knowledge. IMO the foreman should have the responsibility, not to mention the relevant knowledge and experience, to supervise the project and to delegate tasks based on the actual skills and experience of each worker, not based on some arbitrary seniority assigned by HR. It's a long time since I worked in an industrial setting, but I was, on occasion, assigned tasks as a temporary employee that were supposed to be reserved for permanent employees, because some permanent employees lacked the abilities to be entrusted with the equipment - specifically the foreman didn't trust them with the forklifts, but did tell me to operate them for some tasks even though I had not been formally trained and certified to do so. I am sure that H&S would have objected to the foreman exercising his judgment.

On the side of H&S, or of any rule if it comes to that since rules do not change for individuals, in theory, some foremen have bloody awful individual judgement. The upside that you mention has a possible downside, and the H&S regulation just assumes that overall we are all better off if we apply a standard from above. We can call cite examples where that has been good and bad, I'm sure. I think in origin, H&S was about preventing unscrupulous employers from putting their workers at risk.
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 7:19 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
On the side of H&S, or of any rule if it comes to that since rules do not change for individuals, in theory, some foremen have bloody awful individual judgement. The upside that you mention has a possible downside, and the H&S regulation just assumes that overall we are all better off if we apply a standard from above. We can call cite examples where that has been good and bad, I'm sure. I think in origin, H&S was about preventing unscrupulous employers from putting their workers at risk.
H&S is a good thing, was very sorely needed, but poorly executed in many of the same companies that H&S was brought in to protect workers from....

If a company has a great safety culture, H&S has already done what it was supposed to. If a company doesn't, H&S won't help because it's already being bent or ignored.
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Old Jan 22nd 2020, 9:17 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

There is no free lunch, there are always consequences and whilst some issues are self evident on having a positive pay back, many others are not.

I had the misfortune of dealing with the State DoT once, I had not appreciated the extra expense in dealing with their requirements, I had allowed a 50% increase in normal costs, should have allowed 100% They have a budget, they just do significantly less than they could otherwise but nobody counts the cost of those delayed or deferred projects.
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Old Jan 27th 2020, 1:39 pm
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Default Re: "Red Tape" saves lives

I was the defendant (well, I was the company representative) in a workplace fatality case at Blackfriars Crown Court over 20 years ago. Since then I've spent a further 20 years as a senior manager in a heavy industrial sector across nearly a dozen countries and had to deal with a range of H&S (or OSHA in the US, or similar in Holland, Germany, Canada, Sweden etc etc) issues.

In general I've found one has to design systems of work and infrastructure (via risk assessment) to allow for humans who are devoid of all intelligence and common sense. Trying to allow for "skilled" staff to undertake their own controls on an ad-hoc basis is a recipe for disaster - there will always be some sort of production line urgency that means the problem needs to be sorted straight away which then leads to someone forgetting to isolate this or brake that and most of the time they will get away with it. Very occasionally they won't.

Reading the accident report "I saw my left foot appear over my right shoulder" written by the manager at the site (in the UK) who was the trained safety manager can show what can happen - he saw a piece of material caught in the rotating magnet and thought he could undo the guard and just grab it.

The highly qualified engineers (in Holland) who needed to fix a stuff bin-lifter and were working on the drive motor directly underneath the bin that was stuck up in the air - no consideration for whether a bin with a tonne of material could come down on top of them (one fatality, one very damaged).

The site engineer (in Germany) thinking he could adjust the screw-drive whilst it was rotating - dead by having his arm torn off.

The graduate trainee (in the US) who had an engineering degree and was in his third year of training getting himself squashed between two railway carriages being moved on-site - I guess he'll get back to walking at some point.

All these folks were qualified and experienced, but the reality is we need to treat anyone on-site as a complete dummy and enact systems and infrastructure and enforcement accordingly.
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