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PSA: Churchill, W

PSA: Churchill, W

Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:13 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Churchill has been lionized in America even more than the UK; that was one of my observations on coming here. Thats some high hurdle as he is a hero in the UK to many since the war. But we have seen, in this global internet age, a influence from America on the language and syntax of right propaganda. Veterans have become a thing in the UK over the last few years, along with the military in general. (so many memes, are just edited, removing Stars and Stripes, replacing with Union Jacks; the uniforms and other cultural give aways, being left as US signifiers) I can well believe that Churchill worship has intensified as a result of US influence.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:19 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Exactly, it is not rational. It is an emotional response to personal experience (which is not necessarily representative, but may well be - and then what?) that to varying degrees lies outside people's own control. I don't believe that, in the main, people can be brought to "like" other people or groups of people by rational argument. I speak from experience. The most one can hope for is self-reflection, but not everyone is capable of that.

By contrast, recognizing other people's right to integrity, dignity, respect based purely on their humanity, which we all share, is a rational step that any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to grasp.
This argument seems more realistic to me. Deeming that every one group has a moral duty to "like" another group flies in the face of human history. Particularly where long animosities exist (eg. Palestine).
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:21 pm
  #33  
 
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
This argument seems more realistic to me. Deeming that every one group has a moral duty to "like" another group flies in the face of human history. Particularly where long animosities exist (eg. Palestine).

I am questioning the definitions of the groups themselves, as well as the basic assumptions around how one could even begin to either like or dislike them all. The act of putting people into such 'groups', usually due to characteristics over which they have no control, is usually a prelude to some very nasty behaviour, either against them, or against others in their name.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:31 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I am questioning the definitions of the groups themselves, as well as the basic assumptions around how one could even begin to either like or dislike them all.
It's quite common to like individuals but not the group they belong to. You must get along with the Tory for instance?
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 10:05 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I suspect that racism/bigotry etc is very often not a reaction to an actual personal experience at all, but a learned reaction to an artificially created "group" of people based on fear, a personal sense of inadequacy, and a nasty human tendency to want to find other people to whom they can feel superior.
No disagreement from me there, but that's not the context here. The context is an individual who clearly does have some experience of the group concerned, sufficient experience for an opinion to be formed. We're not talking about an artificially created group; it also happens to be the group that probably defines itself as a separate group more than any other group in history.

Much failure to "like" others comes from a discrepancy between expected and actual behaviour. This is reinforced when a group has an actual tendency to behave differently from the reference group, although that behaviour may not be illegal or even perceived as immoral, just "not the done thing". I think it's counter-productive to argue that this other group is "just like us". As human beings, yes, they are; but for cultural reasons, the perceived differences in their behaviour may be very real, albeit perhaps exaggerated. The question is how those differences are framed and whether the reasons for them are understood.

For example, I read an article quite recently (last year, I think) about anti-semitic attitudes and a questionnaire that supposedly proved that anti-semitism was rampant in the UK. One question was (true or false): "Jews always go after the money." This prompted a large number of "true" responses. It's obviously not very flattering (rampant!). But if the statement were phrased: "Jews, compared to the wider population in the UK, are statistically more likely to be ambitious", I would answer with "true", and I wouldn't consider it insulting (either to Jews, or to me if it were applied to me).

Harold Nicolson was a member of the British upper class a hundred years ago. Of course he looked down on Jews. Members of the British upper class a hundred years ago looked down on everyone (else). That doesn't make them anti-semites.

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I am questioning the definitions of the groups themselves, as well as the basic assumptions around how one could even begin to either like or dislike them all. The act of putting people into such 'groups', usually due to characteristics over which they have no control, is usually a prelude to some very nasty behaviour, either against them, or against others in their name.
Almost everyone puts other people into groups. I try not to do it, but I've just put a member of the British upper class at the turn of the last century in a group, so it's 1-nil to you so far.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 10:24 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Have to say, I didn't really know old Winston was quite so flawed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ston-churchill
What is PSA in the thread title? I’ve been puzzling over it, so decided to ask you!
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 10:29 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I am questioning the definitions of the groups themselves, as well as the basic assumptions around how one could even begin to either like or dislike them all. The act of putting people into such 'groups', usually due to characteristics over which they have no control, is usually a prelude to some very nasty behaviour, either against them, or against others in their name.
Yes ---this thread is a discussion regarding the 'negative' actions of Churchill; and the nationals of a country that he 'harmed' or 'insulted' are a 'group' with a name--that of their country.

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Old Mar 17th 2021, 10:31 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Since I mentioned Harold Nicolson, Vita Sackville-West, Leonard Woolf and Virginia Woolf, here’s an article about Leonard Woolf as a self-hating Jew (because he married Virginia Stephen, who, as an upper class English person, was not always a philo-Semite.)

https://observer.com/2006/12/comment...intermarriage/
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 11:36 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
What is PSA in the thread title? I’ve been puzzling over it, so decided to ask you!
Public Service Announcement?
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 12:13 am
  #40  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Public Service Announcement?
Maybe a warning that the discussion might Promote Some Angst. Oh hang on, it's TIO. Everything posted here seems to PSA
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 12:57 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

I would highly recommend this book to put Winston Churchill’s life and achievements in perspective.

http://library.stlawu.edu/record=b1466866

Mr. Churchill's profession : the statesman as author and the book that defined the "special relationship" by Peter Clarke

Many politicians have published one or more books. Most modern British prime ministers & US presidents, for instance. The Labour politician Roy Jenkins published several good political biographies.

But Winston S. Churchill was a professional author first and a politician second, this book contends. It’s a really readable and fun book to read, and covers Churchill’s drinking habits and other aspects of his personal finances in some detail. Churchill’s career as an author is important historiographically in the history of the Second World War - his (arguably self-serving) interpretation of the war dominated the field for several decades. Of course, he had an advantage. He asserted control over the various state papers, and also paid various researchers and ghost writers partly out of the public purse, to help him write the books. (Professional historians such as Sir Lewis Namier, for instance.)

Churchill’s other great work was the History of the English Speaking People, a grandiose project that was obstructed and delayed by his public service in the Second World War. I’ve never read it, but I think it speaks to a theme covered in this thread - the controversial theme of the racial superiority of the white Anglo-Saxon race.

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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:02 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Winston Churchill 1874-1965
Probable the greatest Briton of all time imho lived a life of long ago and would not meet modern standards (maybe) to rubbish the man and call him a racist is wrong!!!
Put your self back in the 1900-1950,s Britain and see how you might be. A totally different person I think??? I think some respect for a great man is due don't you think???
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:38 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by el collado kid View Post
​​​​Probable the greatest Briton of all time
You must have a very low opinion of the British.
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:46 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by el collado kid View Post
Winston Churchill 1874-1965
Probable the greatest Briton of all time imho lived a life of long ago and would not meet modern standards (maybe) to rubbish the man and call him a racist is wrong!!!
Put your self back in the 1900-1950,s Britain and see how you might be. A totally different person I think??? I think some respect for a great man is due don't you think???
Yeah but I think everything you say in this post has been hashed and rehashed endlessly - including in this very thread! I find Churchill fascinating & interesting, and I certainly have “some respect” for him (to use your words.) All the more reason to read more about him, to discover more interesting things about him - warts and all!

No?
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:52 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
You must have a very low opinion of the British.
Not at all just some of the comments on B.E. Maybe as usual i have written the wrong way and not put across my point properly as to what i meant to say! Ah well a day in the life??? Oh yes i am British
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