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PSA: Churchill, W

PSA: Churchill, W

Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:46 pm
  #16  
 
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Hmm, maybe. A bit specific. I guess he's saying he doesn't like general discrimination (anti-semitism) but personally dislikes Jewish people.
And, perhaps, that he does not consider his "dislike of Jewish people" to be anti-Semitic, or doesn't want to. Which to me is in pretty much the same ballpark as "I'm not a racist, but....". Even if the concept of race is a social construct.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:54 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Have to say, I didn't really know old Winston was quite so flawed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ston-churchill
The views of Churchill regarding 'coloured' people are well known in countries concerned.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 5:06 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The views of Churchill regarding 'coloured' people are well known in countries concerned.
I’m pretty sure Churchill’s views regarding ‘coloured’ people would be fairly typical of upper-class, establishment & deep-state people of his generation. I don’t see anything controversial here.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 5:14 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
I’m pretty sure Churchill’s views regarding ‘coloured’ people would be fairly typical of upper-class, establishment & deep-state people of his generation. I don’t see anything controversial here.
It is important though when accepting the harm it did to many people in particular colonial countries. Though certainly just --history---now.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 5:41 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
And, perhaps, that he does not consider his "dislike of Jewish people" to be anti-Semitic, or doesn't want to. Which to me is in pretty much the same ballpark as "I'm not a racist, but....". Even if the concept of race is a social construct.
My take on this is precisely the opposite. I think it says something positive about someone's character when they are willing to defend an individual's or group's human rights, respect and dignity even when they don't like them.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 5:41 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

I had not seen the thread and made the faux pas of posting it again. My spin is that life is not binary with "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys", unless you are foolish to believe what you read oin the mail or Express !
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 6:58 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

What are there so many mass myths over there? Is it something in the water? And why is it that any deconstruction of such myths so predictably results in such ferocious vitriol?
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 7:15 pm
  #23  
 
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
My take on this is precisely the opposite. I think it says something positive about someone's character when they are willing to defend an individual's or group's human rights, respect and dignity even when they don't like them.

The whole idea of "not liking" an entire group of people, of whom you will have actually only met a tiny proportion (in this case Jews, but often by other characteristics assigned as evidence of 'race' or sexuality, etc.) is by its very nature one of prejudice and ignorance. 'Not liking' Jewish people, or the French, or people with some other skin colour to yours, or people who like to have sex a certain way, etc., is nonsensical by any rational measure. It is a technique used to create 'them' and 'us', very popular with authoritarian and/or populist governments and parties, class-ridden societies, and those who seek to divide and conquer.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 7:56 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Churchill for Britain, and Jefferson for the USA; monsters treated as heroes, protected by mythology. One thing most people hate, is when their assumed axioms, that they have grown up with, hoisted upon them, unseen; rather than learned and acquired by enquiry; are challenged. I am not sure why, so many become so defensive; perhaps it is challenging their entire life, their childhood, their influences (family and friends), their lack of independence and enquiry. Whatever it is, its harder to shift mythology from some peoples systems, than fossil from the middle of a 100 ton rock. Perhaps I, in contrast, am too much of the iconoclast, seeing the faults ahead of the positives.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 8:08 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
The whole idea of "not liking" an entire group of people, of whom you will have actually only met a tiny proportion [...] is nonsensical by any rational measure.
Exactly, it is not rational. It is an emotional response to personal experience (which is not necessarily representative, but may well be - and then what?) that to varying degrees lies outside people's own control. I don't believe that, in the main, people can be brought to "like" other people or groups of people by rational argument. I speak from experience. The most one can hope for is self-reflection, but not everyone is capable of that.

By contrast, recognizing other people's right to integrity, dignity, respect based purely on their humanity, which we all share, is a rational step that any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to grasp.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 8:11 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
"Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat – and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology."
More mythology.
Britain's empire was under threat of a rising rival, not Britain itself. WW2 was another iteration of centuries of European wars fought between two powers against the third in its ascendency. It was not a new kind of war, it was old and traditional.
Hitler, like Trump, said the quiet bits out loud; he wrote about his plans and acted upon them. He saw Britain as a possible ally rather than an enemy. His eyes were to the East. He stepped back after Dunkirk and went East. Operation Sea Lion didn't happen; war games suggest Sea Lion would have failed anyway.

Then of course we could look at Britain's war aims, and if Churchill achieved any of them.
An independent Poland - failed.
Curtailing the rise of a third European power - failed, USSR became that power.
Protect the Empire - failed - WW2 was the start of the dismantlement of Empire.

It is only through creating mythologies about what WW2 was about, can Churchill be credited with being a hero.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 8:11 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Churchill for Britain, and Jefferson for the USA; monsters treated as heroes, protected by mythology.
Absolutely... Imagine a Churchillian legacy without WW2.
How would we remember him, if at all.
Author, Artist, Correspondant, Politician... or Gallipoli, General Strike, Adventurer, Racist...
A flawed man certainly and one we come to view through the distorting lens of history.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 8:52 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
More mythology.
Britain's empire was under threat of a rising rival, not Britain itself. WW2 was another iteration of centuries of European wars fought between two powers against the third in its ascendency. It was not a new kind of war, it was old and traditional.
Hitler, like Trump, said the quiet bits out loud; he wrote about his plans and acted upon them. He saw Britain as a possible ally rather than an enemy. His eyes were to the East. He stepped back after Dunkirk and went East. Operation Sea Lion didn't happen; war games suggest Sea Lion would have failed anyway.

Then of course we could look at Britain's war aims, and if Churchill achieved any of them.
An independent Poland - failed.
Curtailing the rise of a third European power - failed, USSR became that power.
Protect the Empire - failed - WW2 was the start of the dismantlement of Empire.

It is only through creating mythologies about what WW2 was about, can Churchill be credited with being a hero.
That’s the other thing about the deification of Churchill, the fact that he was half-American, so US right-wingers, white-supremacists and neo-liberals are all able to claim him as one of theirs. Churchill wanted to protect the Empire, and bring the Americans in to the war. He succeeded in the second aim, but the US was determined to knock the British off the imperial perch because they wanted to be the sole world power.

Anyway I suspect that the “Churchill can do no wrong” narrative in the UK now, is coming from the US right-wing that unfortunately has spawned a UK wannabe cadre. As the Guardian article rightly points out, the British kicked Churchill out of office in 1945, and, while giving him his due as the right man for the wartime job in the 40s, 50s & 60s, were by no means uncritical of him.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:05 pm
  #29  
 
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Exactly, it is not rational. It is an emotional response to personal experience (which is not necessarily representative, but may well be - and then what?) that to varying degrees lies outside people's own control. I don't believe that, in the main, people can be brought to "like" other people or groups of people by rational argument. I speak from experience. The most one can hope for is self-reflection, but not everyone is capable of that.

By contrast, recognizing other people's right to integrity, dignity, respect based purely on their humanity, which we all share, is a rational step that any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to grasp.
I suspect that racism/bigotry etc is very often not a reaction to an actual personal experience at all, but a learned reaction to an artificially created "group" of people based on fear, a personal sense of inadequacy, and a nasty human tendency to want to find other people to whom they can feel superior.

It's the grouping activity itself that puts the whole thing on a false footing before anything else happens at all. Who are "the French", in the sense of what could millions of people have in common that one might dislike the whole lot? Who are "black people" by that same token? Equally, who are "the Jews", a highly diverse population in so many senses? Making judgements about people in this collective way is, imo, inherently invalid, and used only to the detriment of humankind. Recognising 'humanity' just far enough that one is not in favour of persecuting and killing people just because one "doesn't like them" is a tiny fraction of a battle based against an approach that has an unsound principle at its foundation.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Mar 17th 2021 at 9:08 pm.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 9:07 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post

Anyway I suspect that the “Churchill can do no wrong” narrative in the UK now, is coming from the US right-wing that unfortunately has spawned a UK wannabe cadre. As the Guardian article rightly points out, the British kicked Churchill out of office in 1945, and, while giving him his due as the right man for the wartime job in the 40s, 50s & 60s, were by no means uncritical of him.

I think the British right have been quite fond of him for some time, no, in their own right? Bulldogs and flag waving come to mind.

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