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PSA: Churchill, W

PSA: Churchill, W

Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:19 pm
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Default PSA: Churchill, W

Have to say, I didn't really know old Winston was quite so flawed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ston-churchill

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Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:26 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Have to say, I didn't really know old Winston was quite so flawed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ston-churchill
Very thought provoking article, thanks for posting it
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:36 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

"Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat – and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology."

Ah....

Gotcha.

Learned something new today.

That aside, it reads more like your typical woke Guardian whinging. Heavy cherry picking a narrative to suit her purpose while accusing others of effectively doing the same.

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Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:40 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Have to say, I didn't really know old Winston was quite so flawed.
Most don't, but then most don't read the Guardian and the Indie.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-2118317.html
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
"Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat – and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology."

Ah....

Gotcha.

Learned something new today.

That aside, it reads more like your typical woke Guardian whinging.
More a case of full-disclosure than wokeness. The fact that an academic (the author) is threatened (RAF commader comment) for daring to discuss his opinions on the man is troubling.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
"Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat – and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology."

Ah....

Gotcha.

Learned something new today.

That aside, it reads more like your typical woke Guardian whinging. Heavy cherry picking a narrative to suit her purpose while accusing others of effectively doing the same.

So far, the only whingeing is coming from you.

I don't know why people get so triggered by complexity. It's perfectly possible to be a deeply flawed human being and be instrumental in an important cause for good at the same time. I knew many people of my parents' generation who really were quite anti-Semitic, for example, and yet they fought for the Allies in WWII, for all sorts of reasons. The British 'upper classes' were often in no rush to go to war, either. There was a fair bit of support for naziism and for appeasement, starting with a prince of the blood. Some people just can't get their heads around that.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-br...with-the-nazis

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Mar 17th 2021 at 3:49 pm.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:03 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
So far, the only whingeing is coming from you.

I don't know why people get so triggered by complexity. It's perfectly possible to be a deeply flawed human being and be instrumental in an important cause for good at the same time. I knew many people of my parents' generation who really were quite anti-Semitic, for example, and yet they fought for the Allies in WWII, for all sorts of reasons. The British 'upper classes' were often in no rush to go to war, either. There was a fair bit of support for naziism and for appeasement, starting with a prince of the blood. Some people just can't get their heads around that.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-br...with-the-nazis
I just read something about Harold Nicolson yesterday. (Senior civil servant, politician, husband of Vita Sackville-West.) He said he despised anti-semitism, but he didn’t like Jews very much. I think that was a pretty common sentiment among the British upper and middle classes.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:04 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Most don't, but then most don't read the Guardian and the Indie.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-2118317.html
Interesting piece in the Indy. I suppose the point is that this kind of controversey is arising many decades past when it was due. It should be addressed in the educational system rather than the media in 2021. I wonder what Boris' book on WC says about this period.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:07 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
I just read something about Harold Nicolson yesterday. (Senior civil servant, politician, husband of Vita Sackville-West.) He said he despised anti-semitism, but he didn’t like Jews very much. I think that was a pretty common sentiment among the British upper and middle classes.
Trying to get me head around the contradiction in that; can you think of another example with the same logic ?
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:17 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Trying to get me head around the contradiction in that; can you think of another example with the same logic ?
Here is the actual quote. It is from the Wikipedia article about Harold Nicolson. I think the fear of “clever Jews” is typical of the British establishment sentiment of the time...


Nicolson noted that "although I loathe antisemitism I do dislike Jews".[18] In his diaries he expressed trepidation over making admission as a civil servant to the Foreign Office less exclusive: "Jews are far more interested in international life than are Englishmen. And if we opened the service it might be flooded with clever Jews."[19]Tony Kushner argued that he typified the antisemite who "warned publicly against the dangers of antisemitism at any level, yet privately hated the very presence of Jews".[20] Without evidence, he assumed in his diaries in 1944 that a group of girls relaxing with American GIs were Jewish: "I am all for a little promiscuity. But nymphomania among East End Jewesses and for such large sums of money makes me sick."[21]
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:23 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
I just read something about Harold Nicolson yesterday. (Senior civil servant, politician, husband of Vita Sackville-West.) He said he despised anti-semitism, but he didn’t like Jews very much. I think that was a pretty common sentiment among the British upper and middle classes.

It was widespread, from what I've read, although I didn't know about Nicolson. I do remember a rather upper crust English gentleman who had fought in WWII describing the New York Times as "too Jewish" and saying that while the holocaust had been appalling of course, the fact that non-Jewish Germans did nothing was "jolly understandable" due to the supposed dominance of Jewish people in banking and industry and so forth.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:23 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Here is the actual quote. It is from the Wikipedia article about Harold Nicolson. I think the fear of “clever Jews” is typical of the British establishment sentiment of the time...
Sounds like a bit of Jewish ninmbyism ! And he's an anti-nymphomaniac too boot. What an odd fellow.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:25 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Trying to get me head around the contradiction in that; can you think of another example with the same logic ?

Rough equivalent? 'I don't support lynching, but I don't want a Black man marrying my daughter.'
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:29 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Sounds like a bit of Jewish ninmbyism ! And he's an anti-nymphomaniac too boot. What an odd fellow.
He was a character. He was usually quite tolerant of his wife’s nymphomaniacal tendencies, but he famously flew to France and dragged Vita out of bed with Violet. Of course Vita’s most famous lover was married to a Jew, Leonard Woolf, and I think Harold liked and admired Leonard.
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:31 pm
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Default Re: PSA: Churchill, W

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Rough equivalent? 'I don't support lynching, but I don't want a Black man marrying my daughter.'
Hmm, maybe. A bit specific. I guess he's saying he doesn't like general discrimination (anti-semitism) but personally dislikes Jewish people.
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