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Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Old Nov 18th 2019, 9:29 am
  #181  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Well that's part of the dilemma and possibly part of the way out of this mess, isn't it?

If you were leading the party as a confirmed remainer but with the party advocating negotiating a future relationship of maximum convergence (whilst at the same time unequivocally leaving the EU) and then putting that agreement back to the public against a stay-as-we-are option, how would you answer the question at this stage? With a crucial election looming large and painfully aware that a chunk of your voters want the UK to leave?
I'd explain the situation (as he's doing) but say that, personally, I'd vote remain. Simple as that. Throughout this Brexit period politicians have had to accept party policy and then vote with their conscience. Corbyn would and could certainly do that, even as leader.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 9:55 am
  #182  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

He shouldn't have to keep repeating himself. He's said it once - that's usually enough to convict.

This probably isn't the best moment for him to re-state it and have it blasted all over the front pages and thus across the broadcasters and the internet as a major distraction from the actual policy and the rest of the manifesto, which is the bigger issue anyway.

You know what they're like - and he certainly does.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 10:04 am
  #183  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
He shouldn't have to keep repeating himself. He's said it once - that's usually enough to convict.

This probably isn't the best moment for him to re-state it and have it blasted all over the front pages and thus across the broadcasters and the internet as a major distraction from the actual policy and the rest of the manifesto, which is the bigger issue anyway.

You know what they're like - and he certainly does.
So he's a duplicitous toerag then Eric, and that makes him no better than every other politician. Thanks for confirming.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 11:57 am
  #184  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Why is Jezza so f---ing useless? Just saw him on Marr, can he not even dare to speak simple truth. 1. How would he vote on Brexit? 2. What would the EU negotitated deal look like. I'll answer for him: 1. Leave; 2. BRINO. Just spit it out man. Number 2, if Labour gets in, will come out - there's no reason not to sketch it out now. We've seen May's deal, we've seen BoJo's deal, he's intimating that il will be closer, but he won't flesh it out. He's obfuscating. On Number 1, his own personal choice is immaterial, from what he's committed to on the process (re-negotiation and referendum) and on the low involvement he maintains on Brexit, and Labour party policy, it's clear that he will not be fixated on a Brexit decision. He should answer the question openly.
1. Like you say, Corbyn's personal voting choice on Brexit is immaterial in this context, and would be counter-productive. He's being interviewed as the leader of the Opposition in an election period, and it's Labour's policies (including their Brexit stance) that should be being debated by interviewers. And his personal position will alienate 40-50% of potential Labour voters whichever choice he makes, and he'll be criticised either way.

2. What would Labour's Brexit deal look like, who knows. But if he makes promises on it this early, again he'll be criticised for something not completely within his control. Remember, any Labour negotiation with the EU takes agreement by both parties.

As long as Corbyn represents the policies of the Labour Party above his own personal choices, he'll be fine, if the public understands there's a difference. But I have zero confidence in the media's ability to make that distinction clear.

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
He shouldn't have to keep repeating himself. He's said it once - that's usually enough to convict.

This probably isn't the best moment for him to re-state it and have it blasted all over the front pages and thus across the broadcasters and the internet as a major distraction from the actual policy and the rest of the manifesto, which is the bigger issue anyway.

You know what they're like - and he certainly does.
Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
So he's a duplicitous toerag then Eric, and that makes him no better than every other politician. Thanks for confirming.
You're not smarter than a second-grader, it appears.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 12:38 pm
  #185  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
1. Like you say, Corbyn's personal voting choice on Brexit is immaterial in this context, and would be counter-productive. He's being interviewed as the leader of the Opposition in an election period, and it's Labour's policies (including their Brexit stance) that should be being debated by interviewers. And his personal position will alienate 40-50% of potential Labour voters whichever choice he makes, and he'll be criticised either way.

2. What would Labour's Brexit deal look like, who knows. But if he makes promises on it this early, again he'll be criticised for something not completely within his control. Remember, any Labour negotiation with the EU takes agreement by both parties.

As long as Corbyn represents the policies of the Labour Party above his own personal choices, he'll be fine, if the public understands there's a difference. But I have zero confidence in the media's ability to make that distinction clear.
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
You're not smarter than a second-grader, it appears.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 12:56 pm
  #186  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
1. Like you say, Corbyn's personal voting choice on Brexit is immaterial in this context, and would be counter-productive. He's being interviewed as the leader of the Opposition in an election period, and it's Labour's policies (including their Brexit stance) that should be being debated by interviewers. And his personal position will alienate 40-50% of potential Labour voters whichever choice he makes, and he'll be criticised either way.

2. What would Labour's Brexit deal look like, who knows. But if he makes promises on it this early, again he'll be criticised for something not completely within his control. Remember, any Labour negotiation with the EU takes agreement by both parties.

As long as Corbyn represents the policies of the Labour Party above his own personal choices, he'll be fine, if the public understands there's a difference. But I have zero confidence in the media's ability to make that distinction clear.

You're not smarter than a second-grader, it appears.
This is rationalising. If Starmer or Thornbury we're leader, for example, it's so unlikely that they would be pursuing the same ambiguous Brexit policy. I think it will backfire on Corbyn and the country. When he frames Brexit in this way, he takes an emotive issue and transfers all the power to Johnson. On a mental level his cautious and methodical approach is understandable, but people don't vote with their heads. A pity that this country will end up Brexiting because of a confused and stubborn Labour leadership.


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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:19 pm
  #187  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Edit... I may move this out into a thread of its own. A non politically aligned thread where we explore our leanings without having to blasted well name some party or be seen to be in some court or another.
If you do, here's another one. I think I tried something similar in the Canada section. What made you or what influenced you...something like that.

I grew up in a Daily Express (mum) Daily Sketch (dad) household. Myy dad switched to The Sun when the Sketch stopped publishing. He'd say it was for the crossword.

My early days at the then DHSS involved me being trained on Benefits and all of my work colleagues being very middle class while looking down their noses at those claiming benefits. "Ah Fred Smith...he's a right so-and-so" they'd say. Then, sure enough, Fred would be on the phone and when you'd say he wasn't due yet or the amount was this much, you'd get a load of abuse.

And it wasn't just Fred. So you'd become like those you worked with. It's normal and every day. And that's what you'd see represented in the media too. At least 'those' newspapers.

We covered almost nothing but council estates where each adult in the house would have a claim going, some never having worked. It was a time of high unemployment.

Then, in 1978, I moved to a different office with a completely different clientele. Business people. Self employed. Public figures like TV broadcasters, actors, former performers, people with money in trusts, people with shares, people with big mortgages, second mortgages, assets abroad, company directors, students, Iranian students...

Unlike before, when I'd explain how much and when, instead of abuse I'd get "how" or "why" and it completely threw me. I needed answers and I didn't really have them.

So I had to look for them. And it made me question everything else I'd grown up believing so I found my own answers instead of just blindly accepting everything I'd been told.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:30 pm
  #188  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by materialcontroller View Post
So he's a duplicitous toerag then Eric, and that makes him no better than every other politician. Thanks for confirming.
Not at all.

Refusing to state a personal opinion on a matter when you're representing a body of any sort whose policy you're charged with communicating to the public is not being duplicitous. Theresa May flat refused to answer the question and in many quarters she was admired for her tenacity and obstinacy, if nothing else. I don't recall her being accused of duplicity over the matter at the time.

Duplicity is much more Michael Gove, for example, looking earnestly into the camera whilst knowingly telling outright lies or otherwise diddling about with what he knows full well to be true.

And I'm not of that rump of opinion that says that all politicians are bad or everything they do or say is untrue. Nor of another that will only ever defend or take issue with one party.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:30 pm
  #189  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Then, in 1978, I moved to a different office with a completely different clientele. Business people. Self employed. Public figures like TV broadcasters, actors, former performers, people with money in trusts, people with shares, people with big mortgages, second mortgages, assets abroad, company directors, students, Iranian students...

Unlike before, when I'd explain how much and when, instead of abuse I'd get "how" or "why" and it completely threw me. I needed answers and I didn't really have them.

So I had to look for them. And it made me question everything else I'd grown up believing so I found my own answers instead of just blindly accepting everything I'd been told.
And that system never liked being questioned, did it? I suspect it still doesn't.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:33 pm
  #190  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

BBC QT this evening is one with the leaders of the parties present, there is already a lot of discussion as to how many Tory plants will be asking questions on Jeremy, as the person who selects the audience and also the questions is an avowed Tory supporter, and employed by a Tory owned company.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:37 pm
  #191  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Not at all.

Refusing to state a personal opinion on a matter when you're representing a body of any sort whose policy you're charged with communicating to the public is not being duplicitous. Theresa May flat refused to answer the question and in many quarters she was admired for her tenacity and obstinacy, if nothing else. I don't recall her being accused of duplicity over the matter at the time.

Duplicity is much more Michael Gove, for example, looking earnestly into the camera whilst knowingly telling outright lies or otherwise diddling about with what he knows full well to be true.

And I'm not of that rump of opinion that says that all politicians are bad or everything they do or say is untrue. Nor of another that will only ever defend or take issue with one party.
I accept a great deal of what you're saying there Eric, and believe me, I'm definitely no friend of the Tories; but neither May or Gove have ever been touted as principled and conviction politicians in the same way that Corbyn has. That's the billing that he has to live up to, rightly or wrongly, and any perceived evasion, failings or shortcomings are going to be seized upon.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:37 pm
  #192  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
BBC QT this evening is one with the leaders of the parties present, there is already a lot of discussion as to how many Tory plants will be asking questions on Jeremy, as the person who selects the audience and also the questions is an avowed Tory supporter, and employed by a Tory owned company.
And I suppose it's impossible for left-leaning BBC to have any checks and balances in place.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:42 pm
  #193  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
And that system never liked being questioned, did it? I suspect it still doesn't.
I think most people in that office had similar experiences or were more open minded to begin with.

As for now with insufficiently trained call centre staff running so much and a culture of fear among those face to face with those claiming I don't think such a comparison is possible. The impression I get now is "do the dirty work or you know where the door is."

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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:42 pm
  #194  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
And I suppose it's impossible for left-leaning BBC to have any checks and balances in place.
The BBC hasn't been left leaning in it's news coverage for a long time, remember who is their paymaster, yes the government, so don't upset them, and who vets the appointment of people into key positions, yes.. the government, so don't tell me its unbiased or left leaning, almost ALL the top positions are filled by Tory supporters, especially yhose in key posts in news and current affairs, it's only in the last week or so that they have been doing their jobs actually grilling Tory ministers.
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Old Nov 18th 2019, 1:52 pm
  #195  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
This is rationalising. If Starmer or Thornbury we're leader, for example, it's so unlikely that they would be pursuing the same ambiguous Brexit policy. I think it will backfire on Corbyn and the country. When he frames Brexit in this way, he takes an emotive issue and transfers all the power to Johnson. On a mental level his cautious and methodical approach is understandable, but people don't vote with their heads. A pity that this country will end up Brexiting because of a confused and stubborn Labour leadership.
On the other hand, Labour and the LibDems between them might outgun the Tories plus the Brexit Party and then Brexiting or not will be in the hands of stubborn, confused Jo Swinson, unless Labour gets an outright majority, which seems unlikely.
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