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Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:16 pm
  #1546  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post

Report me??? OMG!!!
Report the post. Not the same thing.

The lie in your post has now been reported.

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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:20 pm
  #1547  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Report the post. Not the same thing.

The lie in your post has now been reported.
Please, get a life.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:23 pm
  #1548  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Yup, definitely a long one.

The original poster stated, 'Nazi Germany evolved because some far-right individuals took control of a political party through blaming immigrants and Jews for Germany's problems...'

I asked him who were the immigrants?

You decided to answer for him by saying, 'Jewish immigrants from Poland, and from Galicia and other parts of the former Austro-Hungary. Large numbers had settled in Germany since the end of the war, in response to wars and pogroms in Central Europe.'

I have since pointed out that these were Jews. I ask again, who were the immigrants the Nazis persecuted? Obviously they were not Jews because our learned poster said quite clearly, immigrants and Jews. There may be some, I really don't know. If you don't know then don't drive me mad with this all night.
This is a problem of your own making. You are driving yourself mad.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:27 pm
  #1549  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post


This is a problem of your own making. You are driving yourself mad.
Still waiting to find out who these immigrants were...
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 11:11 pm
  #1550  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Okay, I can see a long night coming on here.

The original poster stated, 'Nazi Germany evolved because some far-right individuals took control of a political party through blaming immigrants and Jews for Germany's problems (Tories, UKIP and Brexit Party anyone?)....... If anything, those in the UK blaming the EU and foreigners for the UK's ills would be a more fitting parallel. 'Would be a more fitting parallel.' That seems pretty clear to me.

He then tries to backtrack by saying,'

I'm not suggesting anyone who voted Leave is on a parallel with Nazis in the 1930's

Then goes on to recite Nazi propaganda and finishes by saying, ‘Instead of 'think of the children, it's now 'Im willing to make the UK poorer for my children'.
and remember 'Taking Back Control', 'Strong and Stable', and Get Brexit Done'! More simple slogans that appealed to decent ordinary people.'


If you can read, tell me how you interpret it?
I said, "if those in the UK blaming the EU and foreigners for the UK's ills would be a more fitting parallel," that is correct. You are also correct that I said, "I'm not suggesting anyone who voted Leave is on a parallel with Nazis in the 1930's. A more fitting parallel was me stating that my suggestion was a better analogy than yours was, not suggesting all Leave voters were on a parallel with Nazis. As I clearly stated previously, many ordinary people who had no bone to pick with the EU voted for Leave because they believed what they were told. Others voted in elections for parties that promised to take us out of the EU. Similarly, many ordinary people in Nazi Germany voted for the National Socialist Party because they believed the promises made by that party, after all, if Labour had a manifesto to create jobs and to make the UK a strong military power, they'd have had a lot of votes if Brexit wasn't on the ticket.

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Yup, definitely a long one.

The original poster stated, 'Nazi Germany evolved because some far-right individuals took control of a political party through blaming immigrants and Jews for Germany's problems...'

I asked him who were the immigrants?

You decided to answer for him by saying, 'Jewish immigrants from Poland, and from Galicia and other parts of the former Austro-Hungary. Large numbers had settled in Germany since the end of the war, in response to wars and pogroms in Central Europe.'

I have since pointed out that these were Jews. I ask again, who were the immigrants the Nazis persecuted? Obviously they were not Jews because our learned poster said quite clearly, immigrants and Jews. There may be some, I really don't know. If you don't know then don't drive me mad with this all night.
Immigrants who were not Jewish, and not born in Germany. I can't find the article I read it in, but I'll look again tomorrow.

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Still waiting to find out who these immigrants were...
Some of them might have been named Chekov, or other Russian, Polish, Czech or other surnames. Or were you just looking for nationalities....
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 12:28 am
  #1551  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Now that is fascinating! I consider that to be my reward for participating in this thread!
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 5:33 am
  #1552  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
Is there anything that cannot, ultimately, be linked to something anti-semitic?
Foreskins?
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 7:30 am
  #1553  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Still waiting to find out who these immigrants were...
Are you sure you're not bipat?
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 7:43 am
  #1554  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
And there are people who are not anti-Semitic, who post these images to have a reasoned debate.
I think the point is that the subject is so sensitive anyone posting images is asking for trouble and should understand the issues surrounding it. It's all very well claiming to want a reasoned debate and no doubt there are some who do. Unfortunately a 'reasoned debate' is quite often simply a cover for anti jewish propaganda. Showing images or making comment that is guaranteed to upset someone isn't 'reared debate'!
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 8:48 am
  #1555  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
I think the point is that the subject is so sensitive anyone posting images is asking for trouble and should understand the issues surrounding it. It's all very well claiming to want a reasoned debate and no doubt there are some who do. Unfortunately a 'reasoned debate' is quite often simply a cover for anti jewish propaganda. Showing images or making comment that is guaranteed to upset someone isn't 'reared debate'!
Fortunately, though, in this thread I think posters are well-intentioned and are seeking a reasoned debate. It seems fairly clear that the discussion here is not “simply a cover for anti Jewish propaganda.”
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 8:58 am
  #1556  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

A few days ago in New York State, a man drove miles from his home with a machete to a Monsey, a town in Rockland County that is home to ultra-orthodox Jewish communities. He entered the house of a rabbi where a Hanukkah celebration was taking place, and indiscriminately attacked attendees, injuring several. He was later arrested.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50952441

It seems he was a bit of a loner & had a history of mental health problems. There is evidence he’d researched and commented on historical anti-Jewish hatred, for instance Hitler and the holocaust.

His lawyer said, quoted in this article;

"We were able this morning to... review scores of papers which frankly show the ramblings of a disturbed individual, but there is no suggestion in any of those ramblings... of an anti-Semitic motive,"

So, what is anti-semitism?
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 9:06 am
  #1557  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
I'm not suggesting anyone who voted Leave is on a parallel with Nazis in the 1930's. Plenty of decent Germans voted for other National Socialist policies in the 1920's and 30's.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guide...b9q/revision/2

Instead of 'think of the children, it's now 'Im willing to make the UK poorer for my children'.
and remember 'Taking Back Control', 'Strong and Stable', and Get Brexit Done'! More simple slogans that appealed to decent ordinary people.
In my opinion though DLD, they're most definitely questionable. How many people do you know who, apparently fully briefed, choose inequality as the future basis of their own and their children's lives?
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 9:16 am
  #1558  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Still waiting to find out who these immigrants were...
An interesting book by a British "immigrant"---living in Germany since 1934.
'The Past is Myself'----by Christabel Bielenberg (Corgi books)-----was made into a BBC serial.

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Old Dec 31st 2019, 9:41 am
  #1559  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
An interesting book by a British "immigrant"---living in Germany since 1934.
'The Past is Myself'----by Christabel Bielenberg (Corgi books)-----was made into a BBC serial.
That is a fascinating book. I’d highly recommend it. I remember the gestapo interview, where she essentially saved her husband’s life.
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Old Dec 31st 2019, 10:01 am
  #1560  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This is exactly what I have said, in the post you are replying to and my two previous ones.



Up to a point. Some of it is in reaction to a past where all sorts of things were considered ok and now no longer are, for very good reason. As people work out how to handle that, some err on the side of, well, "over caution" or too much sensitivity. But only some. On the whole, out of the two options (too little sensitivity or too much) I prefer too much, and as the need for sensitivity reduces (one hopes) because the behaviour itself improves (one hopes) then perhaps the entire reaction will moderate.

What has also happened, in the UK's recent election, is that people and parties who don't give a damn about anti-Semitism or racism or bigotry of any kind (and who have in fact used it to their electoral advantage) have simply used the theme to go after their political rivals.
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This the core of the mural's problem.

To take a less-complex example than this mural, I could paint a picture of a black-skinned man eating a watermelon. It ought not to be racist, and per se is not racist - we all eat fruit, including watermelon - but in certain contexts and given the history of how that image has been used one can see where the problems are going to come in even if I, as the artist, am not racist myself and have no racist intent.
It is rare I agree with you but you have made some excellent points in this thread.

The watermelon comparison is a great example but may not be understood by those outside the United States. A dog whistle and so is the mural.

Nothing in a work of art is coincidental - including things like location.

The mural is anti-Semitic and was interpreted as such by the British public.

Anti-Semitism is a convenient battering ram against Corbyn for political purposes; as well, there have been numerous examples in this thread of those ignoring it, or looking for plausible deniability as with the posts about the mural, to try and politically protect him which is what I think most of the posts here have been about.

I disagree with you that it has nothing to do with the Labour Party. Corbyn injecting himself was laughed off and ignored when he was a backbench radical on the fringe, but it became very much about the Labour Party when he became leader and refused to distance himself from his past associations. In much the same way a US Republican can't brunch with Carolyn Meadows and tweet about it and then claim later on when they are in a leadership role to be gun-neutral.

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