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Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Old Dec 30th 2019, 9:05 am
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn



Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
No, I wouldn't. Targeting jews has become 'problematic' as you put it because most people know that targeting them is odious and wrong. They then make 'problematical' reference and then argue they are not targeting them. These people are as bad, if not worse, than the out and out racists. To excuse them is to support them.
That’s not what I said at all, and (I assume) you know it. You seem to be asserting that an image of a man with a beard counting money MUST BE an anti-Semitic trope. That is simply ridiculous and ahistorical - I can’t take that seriously.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 9:07 am
  #1502  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
No, I wouldn't. Targeting jews has become 'problematic' as you put it because most people know that targeting them is odious and wrong. They then make 'problematical' reference and then argue they are not targeting them. These people are as bad, if not worse, than the out and out racists. To excuse them is to support them.
There's a massive difference between something obvious anti-Semitic and something like the image in question where certain elements are claimed to be anti-Semitic. And it's not excusing them, it's having a different point of view. Maybe the artist should have made them all thirty years younger and gender-inclusive, but it's a sad fact that most of the top people at the biggest countries worldwide are rich white males, though there are a number of Asians and women climbing the list these days. But it's still seen as the former in many cases.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-ceo-100-2019-edition
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 9:18 am
  #1503  
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
Here's a link that has a version that can be expanded full screen.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-labour

Here's a crop of the bankers:


The guy on the left looks a bit 'biblical'; and he's counting money (but shouldn't an archetypal 'banker' of any persuasion count money?). I don't see any skull-cap, or other 'Jewish' accouterments. But let's say he could be Jewish. The rest - is there ANY visual cue whatsoever to suggest Jewish? I see quite a few mustaches; some bald heads; one with glasses. Is it the noses? Are we going to suggest a nose can indicate anti-semitism?! So if the guy on the left 'could be' Jewish, is it wrong to suggest that capitalism is represented by Americans, Arabs, Europeans?

!
Yes I’d agree with you. The five people on the right do not in any way look like the Jews in the historical record of antisemitic caricatures. Armenian? Southern European? Turkish maybe? But not Jewish. (Largely because there are moustaches but no beards which doesn’t fit the historical trope. )

The guy on the left is bearded and is counting money. According to the fellow who wrote the Guardian opinion piece quoted earlier, that alone makes him a caricature of a Jew from the historical antisemitic record. I don’t see that.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 9:55 am
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The one with the red tie could almost be Alf Garnett off Till Death Us Do Part and I don't believe he was Jewish.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:03 am
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
The one with the red tie could almost be Alf Garnett off Till Death Us Do Part and I don't believe he was Jewish.
Warren Mitchell - yes, he was Jewish! And a Labour voter.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

I wonder if maybe all the characters in the picture are in fact portraits of real people? They sort of have that look about them. The right-hand one is Warren Mitchell, any others?
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 10:13 am
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Back to the very problematic Guardian opinion piece.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-labour

”But the employment of an Eye of Providence symbol (often associated with the Illuminati and Freemasonry) in the offending mural is clearly antisemitic.“

Er - you complete nincompoop - it’s the picture on the back of the US one dollar bill. So it symbolizes money.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 12:16 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Back to the very problematic Guardian opinion piece.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-labour

”But the employment of an Eye of Providence symbol (often associated with the Illuminati and Freemasonry) in the offending mural is clearly antisemitic.“

Er - you complete nincompoop - it’s the picture on the back of the US one dollar bill. So it symbolizes money.
The Eye of Providence was a Christian symbol, and religion (and symbolisn) played (and still does play) a massive part in the US. In God We Trust, apparently.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:16 pm
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This is from the Wiki on the mural:

"A local Conservative Jewish councillor likened it to antisemitic propaganda in pre-war Germany.[1]
[2] Lutfur Rahman, then Mayor of Tower Hamlets, said "the images of the bankers perpetuate antisemitic propaganda about conspiratorial Jewish domination of financial and political institutions", and sought to remove it.[2]

Mear One responded

"I came to paint a mural that depicted the elite banker cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the Wizards of Oz. They would be playing a board game of monopoly on the backs of the working class. The symbol of the Free Mason [[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic]sic] Pyramid rises behind this group and behind that is a polluted world of coal burning and nuclear reactors. I was creating this piece to inspire critical thought and spark conversation. A group of conservatives do not like my mural and are playing a race card with me. My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos. For some reason they are saying I am anti-semitic. This I am most definitely not... What I am against is class."[3]

Geoff Whitehouse, a commentator on graffiti art asked "So why is this mural so offensive to the local community that Mr Rahman is asking for it to be removed? Because it reveals that the global financial system is run by white, middle aged men, some of whom are also Jewish? I really hate to break it to Mr Rahman but if he travelled a few miles down the road to the City of London and went and sat in the boardrooms of the major banks I think he'd be in for a shock."




So at least part of the problem here is due to bigoted stereotypes and conspiracy theories about Jewish people that do actually exist - bankers/money lenders, world domination plotters, big-nosed, participants in a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy (roping in stereotypes about Masons for good measure), the "new world order" reference in the placard to the left which is another conspiracy theory about Masons and Jews. All of these appear in the mural, whether the artist intended them that way or not, and because these bigoted prejudices and stereotypes exist the mural at least appears to play to them. On top of that, it was put up next to Brick Lane, the old Jewish neighbourhood of London and in Hanbury Street, where a neo-nazi attempted to detonate a nail bomb in 1999 presumably because of its having been a Jewish centre in the past. I have no idea if the artist had educated himself on any of this or not, but he should have. And that's really not about the Labour party at all, but about a much bigger picture.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:21 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
There's a massive difference between something obvious anti-Semitic and something like the image in question where certain elements are claimed to be anti-Semitic. And it's not excusing them, it's having a different point of view. Maybe the artist should have made them all thirty years younger and gender-inclusive, but it's a sad fact that most of the top people at the biggest countries worldwide are rich white males, though there are a number of Asians and women climbing the list these days. But it's still seen as the former in many cases.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-ceo-100-2019-edition
Again I disagree. There isn't any difference. When you start making excuses then you are supporting racism. It is patently obvious that imagery in particular, is extremely powerful. The 'different point of view' argument is quite disgusting. People with a genuinely different point of view are usually intelligent enough to understand when a subject can or could be offensive and avoid being offensive.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:28 pm
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Apparently the artist also published his rebuttal to the accusations on David Icke's website. At best, ill-judged in the extreme given Icke's views and promotion of Jewish conspiracy theories
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:29 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Again I disagree. There isn't any difference. When you start making excuses then you are supporting racism. It is patently obvious that imagery in particular, is extremely powerful. The 'different point of view' argument is quite disgusting. People with a genuinely different point of view are usually intelligent enough to understand when a subject can or could be offensive and avoid being offensive.
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. I guess if you're conditioned to see a problem, you'll always find it.

Everything's a nail when you only have a hammer......
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:38 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post




That’s not what I said at all, and (I assume) you know it. You seem to be asserting that an image of a man with a beard counting money MUST BE an anti-Semitic trope. That is simply ridiculous and ahistorical - I can’t take that seriously.
No, I'm not asserting a man counting money is Jewish and is an anti-Semitic image. I am asserting that there are people who are anti-semitic and show such imagery; then try to excuse it.. There is usually only one reason why images such as that are shown and you (I assume) know it!
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:42 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
I'm not asserting a man counting money is Jewish and is an anti-Semitic image. I am asserting that there are people who are anti-semitic and show such imagery;
This the core of the mural's problem.

To take a less-complex example than this mural, I could paint a picture of a black-skinned man eating a watermelon. It ought not to be racist, and per se is not racist - we all eat fruit, including watermelon - but in certain contexts and given the history of how that image has been used one can see where the problems are going to come in even if I, as the artist, am not racist myself and have no racist intent.
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Old Dec 30th 2019, 2:49 pm
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Default Re: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This the core of the mural's problem.

To take a less-complex example than this mural, I could paint a picture of a black-skinned man eating a watermelon. It ought not to be racist, and per se is not racist - we all eat fruit, including watermelon - but in certain contexts and given the history of how that image has been used one can see where the problems are going to come in even if I, as the artist, am not racist myself and have no racist intent.
I can agree with you, here, in private as its were but if you know there is going to be offence caused, no matter how unfairly, would you put the image on public display and cause offence? I doubt it. I think we do agree that it has come to pass that saying or doing almost anything these days upsets someone and can be quite ridiculous. Unfortunately that is the world we do live in and hyper-sensitivity is the norm.
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