President Trump
Oct 29th 2020, 5:10 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by Anian
But anyone with a basic historical knowledge would know that a huge portion of those who died were the ones doing the threatening, and an even bigger portion were already against democracy in their own countries before and after the war. Next time just be vague and don't use a specific number, and then we can all assume that you are only talking about the democratic allies, who it was true for.
Oct 29th 2020, 5:15 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by robin1234
I see what you are getting at, but didn’t a very large proportion of them die because Nazi Germany first attacked Poland, and then attacked the USSR? Neither of these two countries was really a democracy in that period, although both the USSR and Poland had elements of democratic process in their political systems.
So in what sense did Polish and Soviet soldiers and civilians die because democracy was threatened? They died because their territories were invaded by a ruthless enemy.
So in what sense did Polish and Soviet soldiers and civilians die because democracy was threatened? They died because their territories were invaded by a ruthless enemy.
Oct 29th 2020, 5:30 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
A couple of things.... Jews were also Germans, French, Russians, Americans and other nationalities when they died. Jews are specifically referred to in the number of deaths because their religion was especially persecuted by the Nazis, but a large number of soldiers and civilians were Christian too.
WW2 wasn't about saving democracy, it was about stopping an organisation intent on ethnic-cleansing a particular religion from the whole of Europe, initially by blaming them for the world's problems. And democracy wasn't the end result for millions after the war who were stuck on the Russian side of the Berlin Wall, or within Eastern Europe, and those in Western Europe were no less and no more democratic than before.
WW2 wasn't about saving democracy, it was about stopping an organisation intent on ethnic-cleansing a particular religion from the whole of Europe, initially by blaming them for the world's problems. And democracy wasn't the end result for millions after the war who were stuck on the Russian side of the Berlin Wall, or within Eastern Europe, and those in Western Europe were no less and no more democratic than before.
Oct 29th 2020, 5:37 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by KJMW
Poland was free country which is why Britain and France came to its defence. The 60 million died as a result of the start of the conflict. It is disingenuous and insulting to all who died to suggest it was a result of countries invaded. Britain was never invaded!!!!!
Oct 29th 2020, 5:42 pm
So long...
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by KJMW
I think you need a history lesson! War was declared on Germany by Britain and France because a free and sovereign country was invaded and Britain and France were defending them.. Ethnic cleansing didn't even exist then other than in Germany itself. Subsequently, with the defeat of Germany democracy was retained in Europe.
But you may want to read my response below, and do your own research...
Originally Posted by kimilseung
I would like to see evidence that supports that claim.
Oct 29th 2020, 5:42 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by KJMW
I think you need a history lesson! War was declared on Germany by Britain and France because a free and sovereign country was invaded and Britain and France were defending them.. Ethnic cleansing didn't even exist then other than in Germany itself. Subsequently, with the defeat of Germany democracy was retained in Europe.
Oct 29th 2020, 11:15 pm
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by paulry
The war wasn't specifically about stopping an organisation intent on ethnic-cleansing a particular religion from the whole of Europe (though that of course would have been a damned good reason for doing so). It was to prevent two toxic regimes intent on world domination by conquest from achieving their objectives.
Countries entered the war, against the axis, to halt the expansionist plans/actions, democracy's salvation and the halt of ethnic cleansing were just a by-product. Charles Coughlin in the US, Moseley in the UK and the Catholic church all had anti-semitic followers during Hitler's time, it wasn't a uniquely German trait.
Qualified to speak cos I did a bit of history stuff at school...
Oct 30th 2020, 2:46 am
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Re: President Trump
Oct 30th 2020, 3:24 am
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by RICH
Nothing about Trump today then.
https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/politi...n-crowds-views
Oct 30th 2020, 3:57 am
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
eta it worked on my laptop. Point taken
Last edited by RICH; Oct 30th 2020 at 5:00 am.
Oct 30th 2020, 7:22 am
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by robin1234
Poland was not really a democracy in 1939, I’d contend. Maybe you disagree? As for “disingenuous and insulting,” give it a rest and calm down. It really isn’t necessary to get into a fight with everyone on BE! Poland was invaded by Germany, was what I was saying.
Oct 30th 2020, 7:53 am
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by kimilseung
Over all you are seeing this from a very myopic British lens. democracy was retained in a part of Europe, a fairly specific, (mostlyish) North-Western part. East not so much, large parts of the South not so either. Asia not so, either. Even for the parts that did retain it, you have to stipulate that it was "Europe" that kept it, as the lands under control of those countries you celebrate for their democracy were far from democratic for the vast majority of their ruled citizens. British and French rule was more of an oligarchy in terms of democracy, with votes for some, and no votes for most. The irony, is that the "victory" for France and Britain did in a span of just a few years, lead to the start of national self-determination and democracy, that process lasted for several decades, and can arguable be said to be continuing today. The spread of national self-determination and democracy was a non intended consequence of winning the war, not a war aim.
Oct 30th 2020, 8:32 am
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Re: President Trump
Originally Posted by KJMW
Myopia isn't confined to me!! I never even mentioned Asia, simply Europe. I did stipulate Europe! As for a war aim: The aim was to come to the defence of a free country. To stop Germany from taking freedom of a sovereign country. That it then took several decades to come to fruition is another issue!!!!
Oct 30th 2020, 8:34 am
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Re: President Trump
Meanwhile, in Trump-related news, Paulry should really love this one - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/1...ni-case-433610
