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President Trump

President Trump

Old Sep 19th 2016, 3:57 pm
  #1606  
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Default Re: President Trump

You were previously ranting that Obama and Clinton tried to "abolish the 2nd amendment" (although there's not one shred of evidence that can substantiate that).

Are you backing down from that now?
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 3:58 pm
  #1607  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
We know it's not what you believe.

However, in a theoretical situation where the 2nd is repealed, if they as you put it, refuse to comply, then they will be breaking federal law and will be dealt with accordingly.

If someone thinks holding on to their guns out of sheer bloody mindedness is worth going to jail or potentially dying for, then they sort of deserve what they get.

But that's not going to happen. At worst, they may have to endure a bit more paperwork to get a new gun and that'll be it.

At the end of the day, it's not what they think, or what you or I think that matters, it's what the law dictates.
I see what you're getting at but look at the maths. Even if 10% of those who refused to comply, were caught, the prisons couldn't even begin to cope with the sudden influx of 'criminals' & nor could the courts even begin to cope with the number of prosecutions, let alone the counter prosecutions so as you say, repeal will never happen.

Which then raises the question of what next?
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 3:59 pm
  #1608  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
You were previously ranting that Obama and Clinton tried to "abolish the 2nd amendment" (although there's not one shred of evidence that can substantiate that).

Are you backing down from that now?
The impression I got was that it fell more under 'infringement' by trying to place limits on the types of firearms possessed and ammunition, etc.

However, when the amendment was written all that was available were single shot muskets and flintlock pistols. I suspect had that been written in the early 20th century or later, it would probably have read a little differently.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:02 pm
  #1609  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
You were previously ranting that Obama and Clinton tried to "abolish the 2nd amendment" (although there's not one shred of evidence that can substantiate that).

Are you backing down from that now?
As usual, you're talking nonsense. I didn't say that at all.

I said that some politicians had previously tried to meddle with it by way of magazine capacity restrictions etc & many had simply ignored that restriction...... And I'll add now that it was such a failure, (IIRC) it got kicked into touch (about) a few years later...... Although I get an idea some States do still enforce or rather try to enforce restrictions.

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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:04 pm
  #1610  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
I see what you're getting at but look at the maths. Even if 10% of those who refused to comply, were caught, the prisons couldn't even begin to cope with the sudden influx of 'criminals' & nor could the courts even begin to cope with the number of prosecutions, let alone the counter prosecutions so as you say, repeal will never happen.

Which then raises the question of what next?
This is why I don't think much will change, and why I don't think either side needs to be wasting time discussing guns when there are more important issues to be dealt with.

Over time, the culture in America might change though, to the point where we will, as a society, be 'mature' enough to be able to own guns so freely without as many incidents. The 'cold dead hands' attitude is destructive and needs to be bred out as soon as possible. Guns are merely tools, not a way of life.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:10 pm
  #1611  
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Default Re: President Trump

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-c...y_magazine_ban
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:11 pm
  #1612  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
As usual, you're talking nonsense. I didn't say that at all.

I said that some politicians had previously tried to meddle with it by way of magazine capacity restrictions etc & many had simply ignored that restriction...... And I'll add now that it was such a failure, it got kicked into touch (about) a couple of years later.
Yes, you are correct. My apologies. Not a rant.

I responded to somone else's claim that Obama and Clinton were trying to "take away their guns" (which would require abolishing the 2nd amendment)...

...My post said that nobody has ever attempted to abolish the 2nd amendment, especially not Obama or Clinton. You posted 4 LOLs in response. Page 100 I believe.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:12 pm
  #1613  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
This is why I don't think much will change, and why I don't think either side needs to be wasting time discussing guns when there are more important issues to be dealt with.

Over time, the culture in America might change though, to the point where we will, as a society, be 'mature' enough to be able to own guns so freely without as many incidents. The 'cold dead hands' attitude is destructive and needs to be bred out as soon as possible. Guns are merely tools, not a way of life.
Certainly a very valid opinion but I'm not sure the people we're discussing would agree.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:17 pm
  #1614  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
Guys,

Note, I'm deliberately not trying to debate the rights & wrongs of firearm ownership in the US which is why I didn't mention my own beliefs for so long.......... The ONLY point I've been trying to make is that HC has said that if she becomes POTUS she'll try to introduce ways to control firearm ownership and/or change the existing situation. (and I've posted numerous links to that effect)

And that if she does, some people in the US will see that as an infringement to their constitutional rights & flatly refuse to comply.

From THEIR point of view (NOT necessarily mine) they won't care what their Govt or even a majority of their fellow citizenry tell them or vote for, they simply won't comply because of how they interpret the wording on the 2nd amendment.

If that scenario ever comes to pass, I reckon many will take that 'cold, dead hands' thing quite literally.

I stress again that I'm talking about what a significant percentage of US firearm owning citizens believe NOT what I believe.
It is either your view or it is not ?
Which is it ?
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:25 pm
  #1615  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
Certainly a very valid opinion but I'm not sure the people we're discussing would agree.
Maybe not, but I know if I was a gun owner, I would be doing all I could to distance myself from such people, if only to avoid the guilt by association
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:45 pm
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
The impression I got was that it fell more under 'infringement' by trying to place limits on the types of firearms possessed and ammunition, etc.

However, when the amendment was written all that was available were single shot muskets and flintlock pistols. I suspect had that been written in the early 20th century or later, it would probably have read a little differently.
Certainly I'm sure they hadn't even begun to imagine how technology, politics & Govt would change in the future & you may well be right in that had they been aware of those things, they might have chosen very different wording.

But (arguably unfortunately) they didn't so have to live with the wording as it was written....... and I don't even begin to imagine what if anything can be done about the situation as it currently is.

Certainly any really effective change could only be achieved if those firearm owning citizenry were willing to accept any changes.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:49 pm
  #1617  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
Certainly any really effective change could only be achieved if those firearm owning citizenry were willing to accept any changes.
That's the part I don't get. If people were running around killing children with bows and arrows, I would have no problem at all needing to register archery equipment. It just makes no sense to me.
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 4:56 pm
  #1618  
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Default Re: President Trump

Great Article about Populism Politics (this applies to Brexit, too).
It’s no longer the economy, stupid: Our identity politics are polarizing us

This too:

America would be Trump’s banana republic

The convention has been dominated by hatred of Clinton because it is the party’s only unifying idea right now.

And yet, it is hardly surprising. Trump doesn’t even pretend to have an ideology. His main idea is that he is great, and if the country elects him, he will make it greater. “Share my glory,” cries Evita in the Andrew Lloyd Webber production, which is what Trump promises his supporters as well.

It is ironic that Trump rails against Latino immigrants given that his campaign seems to mirror those of Latin America’s Peronists, believing in the strongman above any set of ideas.

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Old Sep 19th 2016, 5:06 pm
  #1619  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
That's the part I don't get. If people were running around killing children with bows and arrows, I would have no problem at all needing to register archery equipment. It just makes no sense to me.
Which brings us to other influences such as violent movies, computer games, lack of education, discipline & respect for others etc....... and again, quite how one addresses those issues, I have no idea!

P'raps a return to national service would be a start but can you imagine the reaction that one would get?
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Old Sep 19th 2016, 5:14 pm
  #1620  
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Default Re: President Trump

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
Which brings us to other influences such as violent movies, computer games, lack of education, discipline & respect for others etc....... and again, quite how one addresses those issues, I have no idea!
The games and movies thing is bollocks. People have minds of their own, and we were kicking the shit out of each other thousands of years before the inventions of cinema and the computer.

Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
P'raps a return to national service would be a start but can you imagine the reaction that one would get?
That's shite too. Being forced to provide service for a country that doesn't give a shit about you borders on fascism.
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