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Post EU Referendum...Part II

Post EU Referendum...Part II

Old Oct 17th 2020, 3:16 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
More like the EU failed to get the UK to agree to an unfair deal.

As for success Britain looks to be completing it's withdrawal from the EU with it's sovereignty and self respect fully intact and with a bright future ahead. If it had caved to the EUs demands that would have been the failure.
My impression is that Brexiters believe if one keeps repeating something long enough it makes it true. What evidence or probability is there that there will be a 'bright future' ? I keep asking Brexiters what benefit is there for me ? What benefits from EU membership will India or Paraguay or Vietnam decide to give British citizens of equal value ? Why if one values free trade leave perhaps the trading bloc with so many countries with he most free trade for members ? And incurring the costs of Brexit and the probable negative economic effects right in the middle of this Covid situation is a bit stupid- but Brexiters would be up in arms of Johnson had a flash of sanity and asked toe extend the transition.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
The problem stems from the May period where after initial firm start (remember her Chatham House speech?), May very quickly caved in, causing EU loss of respect for any British position. Then Boris came along, and the EU only entrenched and continued with their hard nosed stance - perhaps thinking that in the end Boris would yield just like May did. But it seems they are mistaken - for now at least. I think the EU has also failed to appreciate that today there is a much higher number of people in the Conservative government that actually want or at least are quite comfortable with a no deal Brexit.
Yes, the EU is entrenched in its position. But not because the EU doesn't believe that the UK will walk away. Take it from me, we're quite willing over here to believe that you'll do so, although we're equally willing to believe that you'll be back very quickly, perhaps within a matter of days, begging for something else when everything goes pear-shaped. In fact the UK government has already pre-empted that, talking about being willing to consider mini-deals even in the absence of an agreement, as if those mini-deals were something of a concession to the EU. You know, fog in Channel, continent cut off sort of thing.

No: the EU is entrenched in its position because it's existential for the EU. The EU cannot on the one hand run a tight ship of 27 members (keeping them all on the same page is no mean feat) and at the same time open its doors to the free spirit that the UK wishes to be.

The UK isn't asking for much, "just a free trade deal". We understand that. The problem is that for advanced, export-oriented industrial economies competing on the same markets and in close geographical proximity to each other in the 21st century, there is no such thing as "just a free trade deal". Such a deal has huge economic and social ramifications.

The EU member states are for the most part social market economies; they have little truck with the neoliberalist economy that the UK economy is increasingly becoming, in which the state serves the market rather than vice-versa. It's simply not in their interests to give the UK what it wants. If it were on offer, the Swiss would have taken it up a long time ago. The UK doesn't think it's asking for much because it doesn't value social market economics. Too bad: the UK doesn't get to decide what the EU thinks is important.

The UK side is now complaining that the EU is now no longer even offering the Canada-style deal was once on offer. Two things about that. One, the "exact same deal" that Canada has was never offered to the UK by the EU. Talk of a "Canada-style" deal referred to a broad description of a kind of arrangement, contrasting with the much closer "Swiss-style" or "Norway-style" deal, not Canada's agreement but with "Canada" replaced in the text by "the United Kingdom". Two, the UK also didn't want the "exact same deal" that Canada has, either. Talk was of "Canada plus plus plus" - what the Canadians have, but with lots of extra goodies for the UK. Well, guess what: the EU also envisages it as "Canada plus plus plus", but the extra goodies are for the EU. Which prompts the UK negotiators to threaten to throw their toys out of the pram.

Many of you still think that the EU is about to blink, at the last minute. You really just don't get it. The EU isn't playing your game of chicken. It couldn't, even if it wanted to: coordination of the 27 member states is too complex for the flying by the seat of one's pants of Johnson-style politics. Four years have passed and the captain of the Titanic is still screaming at the iceberg that it has to move.

But don't take all this from me. Call up the European press online and run it through DeepL.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 4:20 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
My impression is that Brexiters believe if one keeps repeating something long enough it makes it true. What evidence or probability is there that there will be a 'bright future' ? I keep asking Brexiters what benefit is there for me ? What benefits from EU membership will India or Paraguay or Vietnam decide to give British citizens of equal value ? Why if one values free trade leave perhaps the trading bloc with so many countries with he most free trade for members ? And incurring the costs of Brexit and the probable negative economic effects right in the middle of this Covid situation is a bit stupid- but Brexiters would be up in arms of Johnson had a flash of sanity and asked toe extend the transition.

Additionally, my idea of a country having "self-respect" is not reflected in the withdrawal from the European project at all, let alone in the manner of the leaving. A country that used to be at the forefront of overcoming nationalism and moving toward a collaborative union of mutual self-interest has taken several steps backwards, and dragged its culture and the state of the national dialogue along with it.

It's a matter of embarrassment, not pride.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 7:30 pm
  #22684  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
The problem stems from the May period where after initial firm start (remember her Chatham House speech?), May very quickly caved in, causing EU loss of respect for any British position. Then Boris came along, and the EU only entrenched and continued with their hard nosed stance - perhaps thinking that in the end Boris would yield just like May did. But it seems they are mistaken - for now at least. I think the EU has also failed to appreciate that today there is a much higher number of people in the Conservative government that actually want or at least are quite comfortable with a no deal Brexit.
The problem is Brexiters have failed to negotiate a good deal with the EU.

They confidently said it would be easiest deal in history.

A good negotiator would have persuaded the EU to accept some demands.

But Brexiters are not good at negotiating anything. They're incompetent.

So now we have no deal.

And we'll likely have no deal with other countries too because if they couldn't even negotiate a deal with the EU there's fat chance they'll be able to negotiate one with the US or anyone else.

Last edited by GeneralPowerpoint; Oct 17th 2020 at 7:32 pm.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 8:32 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
Yes, the EU is entrenched in its position. But not because the EU doesn't believe that the UK will walk away. Take it from me, we're quite willing over here to believe that you'll do so, although we're equally willing to believe that you'll be back very quickly, perhaps within a matter of days, begging for something else when everything goes pear-shaped. In fact the UK government has already pre-empted that, talking about being willing to consider mini-deals even in the absence of an agreement, as if those mini-deals were something of a concession to the EU. You know, fog in Channel, continent cut off sort of thing.

No: the EU is entrenched in its position because it's existential for the EU. The EU cannot on the one hand run a tight ship of 27 members (keeping them all on the same page is no mean feat) and at the same time open its doors to the free spirit that the UK wishes to be.

The UK isn't asking for much, "just a free trade deal". We understand that. The problem is that for advanced, export-oriented industrial economies competing on the same markets and in close geographical proximity to each other in the 21st century, there is no such thing as "just a free trade deal". Such a deal has huge economic and social ramifications.

The EU member states are for the most part social market economies; they have little truck with the neoliberalist economy that the UK economy is increasingly becoming, in which the state serves the market rather than vice-versa. It's simply not in their interests to give the UK what it wants. If it were on offer, the Swiss would have taken it up a long time ago. The UK doesn't think it's asking for much because it doesn't value social market economics. Too bad: the UK doesn't get to decide what the EU thinks is important.

The UK side is now complaining that the EU is now no longer even offering the Canada-style deal was once on offer. Two things about that. One, the "exact same deal" that Canada has was never offered to the UK by the EU. Talk of a "Canada-style" deal referred to a broad description of a kind of arrangement, contrasting with the much closer "Swiss-style" or "Norway-style" deal, not Canada's agreement but with "Canada" replaced in the text by "the United Kingdom". Two, the UK also didn't want the "exact same deal" that Canada has, either. Talk was of "Canada plus plus plus" - what the Canadians have, but with lots of extra goodies for the UK. Well, guess what: the EU also envisages it as "Canada plus plus plus", but the extra goodies are for the EU. Which prompts the UK negotiators to threaten to throw their toys out of the pram.

Many of you still think that the EU is about to blink, at the last minute. You really just don't get it. The EU isn't playing your game of chicken. It couldn't, even if it wanted to: coordination of the 27 member states is too complex for the flying by the seat of one's pants of Johnson-style politics. Four years have passed and the captain of the Titanic is still screaming at the iceberg that it has to move.

But don't take all this from me. Call up the European press online and run it through DeepL.


Far too many senior UK politicians based their Brexit decision on the assumption that the EU is dependent on the UK. Fog, Channel indeed.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 8:36 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by GeneralPowerpoint View Post
The problem is Brexiters have failed to negotiate a good deal with the EU.

They confidently said it would be easiest deal in history.

A good negotiator would have persuaded the EU to accept some demands.

But Brexiters are not good at negotiating anything. They're incompetent.

So now we have no deal.

And we'll likely have no deal with other countries too because if they couldn't even negotiate a deal with the EU there's fat chance they'll be able to negotiate one with the US or anyone else.
Mantra of 2021: a Bad Deal is better than No Deal. Especially if it's wrapped in a Union Jack. The Brexiteers will lap it up.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 11:08 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Looks like the supporting media is cranking into action...https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/129513...on-ross-clark/
Would that be the same Ross Clark, who writing for the Daily Mail, can't seem to get his facts on Covid right?.......

Mail Covid Denialism BUSTED
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 11:26 am
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Meanwhile, in the Irish press:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...83290?mode=amp
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 12:35 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

And in this morning's German press:

www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2020-10/brexit-boris-johnson-grossbritannien-handelsabkommen-manfred-weber

18 October 2020, 10:06

Die Europäische Union werde die Integrität ihres Binnenmarktes niemals aufgeben, sagte Weber weiter. "Jeder, der seine Produkte bei uns verkaufen will, muss unsere Standards einhalten. Es wird kein zweites Singapur vor unserer Haustüre geben." Auch werde man keine Verträge mit Partnern abschließen, die bestehende Verträge nicht ernst nähmen. Dennoch bleibe die EU verhandlungsbereit, sagte Weber. "Wir wollen ein Abkommen, wir wollen auch in Zukunft eine enge Partnerschaft."

(Paste into www.deepl.com if you don't speak German.)
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Translation ......

The European Union will never give up the integrity of its internal market, Weber continued. "Everyone who wants to sell their products with us must comply with our standards. There will not be another Singapore on our doorstep." Nor will we conclude contracts with partners who do not take existing contracts seriously. Nevertheless, Weber said that the EU was still willing to negotiate. "We want an agreement, we want a close partnership also in the future.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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Old Oct 18th 2020, 1:08 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Translation ......

The European Union will never give up the integrity of its internal market, Weber continued. "Everyone who wants to sell their products with us must comply with our standards. There will not be another Singapore on our doorstep." Nor will we conclude contracts with partners who do not take existing contracts seriously. Nevertheless, Weber said that the EU was still willing to negotiate. "We want an agreement, we want a close partnership also in the future.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Perhaps Brexit will be Blundering Bojo's undoing in the end.


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Old Oct 18th 2020, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
And in this morning's German press:

www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2020-10/brexit-boris-johnson-grossbritannien-handelsabkommen-manfred-weber

18 October 2020, 10:06

Die Europäische Union werde die Integrität ihres Binnenmarktes niemals aufgeben, sagte Weber weiter. "Jeder, der seine Produkte bei uns verkaufen will, muss unsere Standards einhalten. Es wird kein zweites Singapur vor unserer Haustüre geben." Auch werde man keine Verträge mit Partnern abschließen, die bestehende Verträge nicht ernst nähmen. Dennoch bleibe die EU verhandlungsbereit, sagte Weber. "Wir wollen ein Abkommen, wir wollen auch in Zukunft eine enge Partnerschaft."

(Paste into www.deepl.com if you don't speak German.)

Haven't read the whole article yet, but the bit you posted above seems perfectly reasonable, as per translation.

"The European Union will never give up the integrity of its internal market, Weber continued. "Everyone who wants to sell their products with us must comply with our standards. There will not be another Singapore on our doorstep." Nor will we conclude contracts with partners who do not take existing contracts seriously. Nevertheless, Weber said that the EU was still willing to negotiate. "We want an agreement, we want a close partnership in the future."

It's just normal behaviour. Johnson et al need to cast the EU as "the enemy" for internal propaganda reasons, and sadly plenty of people are still falling for it.

We were part of the union. Now we are not. We were on the inside. Now we are not. What did anyone expect?
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 1:19 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post

It's just normal behaviour. Johnson et al need to cast the EU as "the enemy" for internal propaganda reasons, and sadly plenty of people are still falling for it.

We were part of the union. Now we are not. We were on the inside. Now we are not. What did anyone expect?
Cake. They all expected Cake.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 1:25 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Cake. They all expected Cake.
Well I hope it wasn't imported cake because it's going to be pretty stale before our government works out how to manage the lines we've now drawn in the sand Channel.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 2:09 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Well I hope it wasn't imported cake because it's going to be pretty stale before our government works out how to manage the lines we've now drawn in the sand Channel.
'Mr Kipling', 'Cadbury Cakes' and many others are British so UK 'cake eaters' will be OK! 'Marie' biscuits remember discussing here---were---British--Peek Freans originally. UK can import them from anywhere now if they want to.
(Just discovered a recipe for the latter and foolishly read it out to OH-----now I will be making them!)


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