British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 8:05 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
As (I think) Uncle Albert said:

The best things in life aren't free but the best thing in life is freedom.

No one should be surprised the Brexit would cause a downturn in the economy in the short term but we've seen plenty of those in the past for other reasons & I personally think the economy will do better in the long term if the UK is out of the EU but even if it doesn't and even if the EU continues in it's present form (which I doubt) it'll be worth it to be out of the EUSSR & back to proper democracy without unelected leaders.

amideislas Aug 5th 2016 8:18 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Nice sentiment, but the thing you need to ask is "where will all this prosperity come from?". It Britain going to suddenly get the empire back? Get an American express card to charge it all on? What?

And what exactly, is the basis of the "crisis of freedom"? Britain is already the single most autonomous, sovereign and self-governing member of the EU. And what is the "EU dictatorship" thing again? That's so far OTT, it's hardly worth me responding to it.

Again, it sounds very much like "we want all of the benefits, but none of the burdens, because, well, we're British, we're entitled".

And although that may seem a bit OTT, it's probably worth pointing out the British obsession with benefits and entitlements. Even have TV programmmes about it. Really popular ones. Funny, I'm not aware of any such thing in Europe.

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 8:40 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12020432)
Nice sentiment, but the thing you need to ask is "where will all this prosperity come from?". It Britain going to suddenly get the empire back? Get an American express card to charge it all on? What?

And what exactly, is the basis of the "crisis of freedom"? Britain is already the single most autonomous, sovereign and self-governing member of the EU. And what is the "EU dictatorship" thing again? That's so far OTT, it's hardly worth me responding to it.

Again, it sounds very much like "we want all of the benefits, but none of the burdens, because, well, we're British, we're entitled".

And although that may seem a bit OTT, it's probably worth pointing out the British obsession with benefits and entitlements. Even have TV programmmes about it. Really popular ones. Funny, I'm not aware of any such thing in Europe.

Para 1: I've never suggested it'll be free, easy or cheap but the freedom of not being governed by unelected leaders will be well worth it......... but we will be saving a very considerable amount by not paying the EU subs.

Para 2: Why do you put 'crisis of freedom' in "speech marks" which are meant to be used to quote someone? - I don't remember using that expression.

The UK may be "Britain is already the single most autonomous, sovereign and self-governing member of the EU" but note your words "of the EU"

It will be significantly more self governing once outside the EU. For example, it can withdraw from the HRA, ECHR & common fisheries policy etc if it so desires.

Para 3: I've never mentioned entitlements at all....... but I have often mentioned freedom & the principle of self determination & they're obviously important to a majority of the electorate....... Almost 1.27 M in fact.

Para 4: Again, I've never mentioned "benefits and entitlements".

jimenato Aug 5th 2016 9:15 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
What has the ECHR got to do with the EU?

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 10:20 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12020467)
What has the ECHR got to do with the EU?

The E in the acronym is the clue in that it stands for European.

Within the EU, it'd be very difficult, if not impossible for the UK to withdraw from the ECHR whereas once independent, it can withdraw easily & replace it with whatever it likes. (Also the same with the HRA)

Obviously no-one can see into the future but I'd expect the independent UK to withdraw from both & introduce new legislation and/or a proper constitution with more focus on the citizens rights & less on non citizens rights.

amideislas Aug 5th 2016 10:32 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Just an observation, but...

I live in the Europe that is apparently so fearsome. And I have for decades. I speak the languages and have many close relationships with Europeans of many different cultures and backgrounds. I also have close relationships with British friends, and of course, there's family back in blighty, who I have regular contact with. I also hold close relationships with a number of Americans and Canadians. I have run businesses in Europe, and still retain relationships with colleagues and associates from those businesses.

Here's the observation; of all these friends, family,acquaintances, colleagues and associates, there is a clear pattern of perception.

To date, I don't know of even one European who believes that the EU is "all bad". There are various gripes, but not one believes that the EU is a bad thing, and most are rather pro-EU, and feel it has only made their lives better. And it demonstrably has. Especially for the Germans, who are still the most prosperous economy in Europe, more so than even Britain.

And although most of the Europeans I know express concerns about refugees (some quite strongly), not one of them expresses any desire to end free movement within Europe or believes that would solve anything, and all see that as a fundamentally important part of the European project that has nothing to do with refugees. Not one.

Further I find it refreshing that Europeans seem to be able to readily distinguish the difference between refugees and European migration.

OK, I know there must be dissenters, because I read about it, particularly in the British press. I just don't know any.

But while we're on the subject of Britain, I have to say, almost every Brit I know is opposed to the EU to varying degrees, citing many of the same reasons expressed here. Such as, freedom of movement leads to the influx of refugees and therefore, terrorism. That Britain's "open borders" with Europe are the reason for virtually all of Britain's problems, from the NHS, to high property prices, and even.. yes, traffic jams. That the EU is somehow a wholly corrupt conspiracy to overthrow member governments. That Europe is falling to pieces. That Britain's "freedom" is at stake. That Britain will somehow "flourish" when it sheds itself of these burdens.

And the Americans get most of their understanding solely from the British viewpoint, so they also see it much the same way, although a bit more cautiously and without the same passion as Brits seem to have.

The question is, why is it that only Brits know these things for certain (despite all evidence to the contrary), and the people who are born and raised in Europe are somehow "blind" to it all? As if they are under some kind of Kremlin mind control or something.

jimenato Aug 5th 2016 10:33 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12020492)
The E in the acronym is the clue in that it stands for European.

Within the EU, it'd be very difficult, if not impossible for the UK to withdraw from the ECHR whereas once independent, it can withdraw easily & replace it with whatever it likes. (Also the same with the HRA)

Obviously no-one can see into the future but I'd expect the independent UK to withdraw from both & introduce new legislation and/or a proper constitution with more focus on the citizens rights & less on non citizens rights.

Why would it be difficult?

jimenato Aug 5th 2016 10:41 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Would we also withdraw from the Council of Europe?

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 10:45 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12020497)
Just an observation, but...

I live in the Europe that is apparently so fearsome. And I have for decades. I speak the languages and have many close relationships with Europeans of many different cultures and backgrounds. I also have close relationships with British friends, and of course, there's family back in blighty, who I have regular contact with. I also hold close relationships with a number of Americans and Canadians. I have run businesses in Europe, and still retain relationships with colleagues and associates from those businesses.

Here's the observation; of all these friends, family,acquaintances, colleagues and associates, there is a clear pattern of perception.

To date, I don't know of even one European who believes that the EU is "all bad". There are various gripes, but not one believes that the EU is a bad thing, and most are rather pro-EU, and feel it has only made their lives better. And it demonstrably has. Especially for the Germans, who are still the most prosperous economy in Europe, more so than even Britain.

And although most of the Europeans I know express concerns about refugees (some quite strongly), not one of them expresses any desire to end free movement within Europe or believes that would solve anything, and all see that as a fundamentally important part of the European project that has nothing to do with refugees. Not one.

Further I find it refreshing that Europeans seem to be able to readily distinguish the difference between refugees and European migration.

OK, I know there must be dissenters, because I read about it, particularly in the British press. I just don't know any.

But while we're on the subject of Britain, I have to say, almost every Brit I know is opposed to the EU to varying degrees, citing many of the same reasons expressed here. Such as, freedom of movement leads to the influx of refugees and therefore, terrorism. That Britain's "open borders" with Europe are the reason for virtually all of Britain's problems, from the NHS, to high property prices, and even.. yes, traffic jams. That the EU is somehow a wholly corrupt conspiracy to overthrow member governments. That Europe is falling to pieces. That Britain's "freedom" is at stake. That Britain will somehow "flourish" when it sheds itself of these burdens.

And the Americans get most of their understanding solely from the British viewpoint, so they also see it much the same way, although a bit more cautiously and without the same passion as Brits seem to have.

The question is, why is it that only Brits know these things for certain (despite all evidence to the contrary), and the people who are born and raised in Europe are somehow "blind" to it all? As if they are under some kind of Kremlin mind control or something.

As I've said on numerous occasions the really sad thing about all this is that had the EU been even a little more flexible during the Cameron negotiations the vote would have almost certainly gone the other way.

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 10:51 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12020498)
Why would it be difficult?

Because the EU (unelected) leaders would make it so. Now we have the Brexit the UK can do as it wishes.


Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12020503)
Would we also withdraw from the Council of Europe?

I don't know because I don't have a crystal ball but would certainly expect it to be considered & debated as will most if not all other EU & European linked matters.

jimenato Aug 5th 2016 10:54 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12020513)
Because the EU (unelected) leaders would make it so. Now we have the Brexit the UK can do as it wishes.



I don't know because I don't have a crystal ball but would certainly expect it to be considered & debated as will most if not all other EU & European linked matters.

How could the EU leaders make it difficult for us to leave the ECHR when it has nothing to do with them?

amideislas Aug 5th 2016 11:21 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12020506)
As I've said on numerous occasions the really sad thing about all this is that had the EU been even a little more flexible during the Cameron negotiations the vote would have almost certainly gone the other way.


Well, c'mon. The leave camp had no choice but to resort to instigation of fear and hysteria over foreigners, utter misrepresentation of "facts" and even flat-out lies to achieve that result. Simply because the truth wouldn't have won the electorate. Full stop.

This is not the fault of the EU. In fact, Cameron negotiated more or less all the benefits, with few of the burdens (not one other EU member enjoys that status, by the way). What's likely to be negotiated now will be something less than that. Why would Europe pull down it's knickers now? Europe can now clearly see the result of what they didn't know before - and feared. Clearly, the problem is Britain's, not Europe's. Europe will get what it wants anyway. Britain is not in the commanding position.

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 11:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12020515)
How could the EU leaders make it difficult for us to leave the ECHR when it has nothing to do with them?

It has nothing to do with them directly but I'm 110% sure that had the UK remained a member of the EU & announced withdrawal there would have been no end of kak flying at the UK from the EU........ but once outside the EU, I'm sure it'll be much easier & would be very surprised if they don't withdraw....... A quick Google will show you it's already been discussed.

I'd expect any and all links to both the EU & Europe to be examined/discussed/debated now that the Brexit vote has been decided.

The UK voted for independence so it's logical to expect anything from elsewhere in the world that affects UK autonomy will be looked at.

I'm not suggesting it'll all be changed but would expect it all to be reconsidered.

mfesharne Aug 5th 2016 11:34 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12020528)
Well, c'mon. The leave camp had no choice but to resort to instigation of fear and hysteria over foreigners, utter misrepresentation of "facts" and even flat-out lies to achieve that result. Simply because the truth wouldn't have won the electorate. Full stop.

This is not the fault of the EU. In fact, Cameron negotiated more or less all the benefits, with few of the burdens (not one other EU member enjoys that status, by the way). What's likely to be negotiated now will be something less than that. Why would Europe pull down it's knickers now? Europe can now clearly see the result of what they didn't know before - and feared. Clearly, the problem is Britain's, not Europe's. Europe will get what it wants anyway. Britain is not in the commanding position.

Para 1: and the remain camp told us what truths? - I certainly remember the 'Project Fear' telling us all kinds of BS propaganda & lies....... none of which so far have come to pass. - Both sides were wrong in that regard.

Para 2: DC obviously didn't negotiate anywhere near enough because his options were rejected & the majority voted to leave & bearing in mind Europe wanted the UK to stay & that was rejected by the majority obviously proves the problem is Europe's rather than Britain's.

Britain will be in the commanding position because it can no longer be dictated to & can do as it likes without outside interference.

But as Eric pointed out: It's all academic now because the referendum has been held & the majority voted to leave so leave we must.

jimenato Aug 5th 2016 11:34 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12020529)
It has nothing to do with them directly but I'm 110% sure that had the UK remained a member of the EU & announced withdrawal there would have been no end of kak flying at the UK from the EU........ but once outside the EU, I'm sure it'll be much easier & would be very surprised if they don't withdraw....... A quick Google will show you it's already been discussed.

I'd expect any and all links to both the EU & Europe to be examined/discussed/debated now that the Brexit vote has been decided.

The UK voted for independence so it's logical to expect anything from elsewhere in the world that affects UK autonomy will be looked at.

I'm not suggesting it'll all be changed but would expect it all to be reconsidered.

Admit it - you thought the ECHR was something to do with the EU didn't you?;)

Don't worry many other leave voters did as well.

It's just another example of a leave voter voting leave for a wrong reason.


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