British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost Jan 27th 2017 4:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12163219)
The EU. case is simple, if you want the same benefits as the other 27 members the UK has to agree to concessions it is ruling out.
The decision to concede or not is the UK s not the EUs.
The EU does not have to do anything.

The EU will (hopefully) decide what is best for the EU and that is precisely what the EU should do.

If they do make a decision out of spite or for some other reason apart from the economic interest of EU citizens then that's their problem.

SultanOfSwing Jan 27th 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163301)
Yeah as someone with a foreign spouse who cannot take British citizenship I have to say that one terrifies the hell out of me. It actually scares me to leave the country again because if my better half lost her UK ILR while we were overseas then I don't know how in the hell I would be able to bring her back.

EU rules and loopholes have been allowing Europeans to bypass the British restrictions for years. Hopefully after Brexit spousal sponsorship rules can be a bit more relaxed and sensible than they are now because the current system basically punishes UK citizens while making it a lot easier for holders of other EU passports.

She isn't allowed to hold dual nationality, right? That sucks, because it isn't just punishing her, it's punishing you - a British citizen. I know family based immigration is a favourite target for the anti-immigration movement but go after brothers, sisters and parents, not spouses and children.

Not that we're likely to move to the UK any time soon, but it is nice to have it as an option.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163301)
Incidentally UK visas for some nationalities did used to just be a stamp. People of preferred nationalities could even apply for non-immigrant visas on arrival (e.g. Canada-style) but the Labour government overhauled the system massively in the mid-2000's. I think the UK was actually one of the first countries in the world to introduce a fully biometric immigration system.

That's where I remember it from then. I was an Income Support decision maker in the early 2000s, so I would have seen the stamp on passports to verify eligibility.

mrken30 Jan 27th 2017 5:20 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
So instead of staying at home to resolve the disarray within the ranks with regards to Brexit votes, May seems to have a craving for Cheetos.

DaveLovesDee Jan 27th 2017 5:29 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12162979)
What I've read suggests that we are because going back on it would likely trigger more political and economic upheaval as well as a general election that the Conservatives are not confident they would win.

Both Brexit and non-Brexit are likely to cause upheavals of one kind or another. A non-Brexit would likely mean a Tory election defeat but the economy will recover faster because being a member of the EU is ultimately a known factor to the markets. Brexit is more politically stable short term, until the long-term effects on the economy are known, and that will likely take a while.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12162986)
There was definitely economic upheaval after the referendum but that has now stabilised and causing more of it at this point isn't going to do anybody any favours.

There is unlikely to be any major economic upheaval at this point, but there will be once A50 is triggered, and in the months running up to the final deal and exit dates.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163050)
The EU are at least partly to blame for ignoring and stringing Turkey along for decades. Turkey was a country totally open to change and the EU had every opportunity to embrace it but instead the EU offered only the cold shoulder.

This has been explained to you yesterday. Turkey was given a list of items it need to do to join the EU. It has completed less than 10% of these. It still has to remove it's troops from Cyprus, and bring it's human rights laws in line with the EU's. Neither is going to happen in the current Turkish political climate.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163074)
The EU has proven time and time over that it couldn't really give a toss what those poorer, smaller countries want. It is not a union of equals, not by a long shot. If a post-Brexit Germany and France want Turkish accession to fill part of the hole left by the UK then it will happen one way or another.

But didn't you say this too?


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163050)
The EU are at least partly to blame for ignoring and stringing Turkey along for decades.

Are they suddenly going to open their doors because the UK is gone? Cyprus has a veto on Turkish membership too.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163112)
Let's the honest the EU is at least partially to blame for the current situation. Cameron went to them with some pretty fair requests and they nonchalantly dismissed them. They could have kept Britain in if they had been a bit more open to change but sadly they weren't.

What Ami said. Cameron got most of what he asked for. The same as every other UK Prime Minister has done since Thatcher when they've gone whining to the EU.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163150)
Except some of them were claiming social benefits in Britain without ever paying into the system.

That's why the EU needs to be revisited in this regard. There is a stark difference in the social systems offered by the different EU states.

And different costs of living, different rates of pay, and different tax systems.


Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12163212)
OK, they get a UK equivalent of a green card, then. I don't know why I thought it was a passport stamp. Anyway, that will be the document issued for any current EU nationals in the UK, who are 'grandfathered in' post Brexit.

EU/EEA nationals in the UK apply for a Residence Certificate. The non-EU/EEA family members of Brits, EU/EEA nationals and all Third-Country Nationals apply for Biometric Residence Permit cards.


One would hope, also, that the ridiculous income requirement for non-EU spouses of British citizens will be revised, because the only thing that I was opposed to regarding the membership of the EU was that I was essentially barred from returning to live because I wouldn't be able to earn enough to bring my wife and children with me.
The minimum income requirement has absolutely nothing to do with the UK's membership of the EU. It's purely a UK choice to impose it. Some EU countries choose to have an income requirement for their nationals married to non-EU nationals, others such as Portugal don't, and allow Portuguese nationals to bring their non-EU spouses in under EU free movement rules.

The UK's income requirement is the 2nd highest in the EU, and is a major factor in Brits being the highest percentage of all EU nationals using the Surinder Singh route because they don't earn enough to meet the requirement. (51% of Brits don't earn £18,600 per year).


Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12163254)
One rough sleeper is too many, but I'm very surprised that the number (~4100) is so low. A 16% increase means about 65 more souls than before.

I think the article mentioned that the figures were based on the 174 local authorities who responded out of 360-something nationally. So we could probably double the numbers.

DigitalGhost Jan 27th 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12163334)
She isn't allowed to hold dual nationality, right? That sucks, because it isn't just punishing her, it's punishing you - a British citizen. I know family based immigration is a favourite target for the anti-immigration movement but go after brothers, sisters and parents, not spouses and children.

Yep. It's shit. God knows she has paid her dues in the UK but taking British citizenship will strip of her of her original nationality unfortunately. There are growing numbers of immigrants and mixed-race voters in her homeland these days and a lot of politicians there are pushing for change but it sadly looks unlikely to happen anytime soon. I could potentially take her nationality and hold on to both but that would be exploiting a couple of loopholes in international law and would get me into trouble if I was caught.

The irony was that the test she took to become a UK permanent resident (yes there is actually an exam for that these days) is also the same one that she would need to take to become a citizen I think.

DigitalGhost Jan 27th 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12163354)
This has been explained to you yesterday. Turkey was given a list of items it need to do to join the EU. It has completed less than 10% of these. It still has to remove it's troops from Cyprus, and bring it's human rights laws in line with the EU's. Neither is going to happen in the current Turkish political climate.

Oh come on. You know full well that even if Turkey met every requirement on that list and agreed to give up all claims to Cyprus forever, the EU would still come up with some BS reason as to why Turkish accession wasn't possible.

Let's face it, the EU has never even realistically wanted Turkey to join. They just strung the Turkish along to keep them in check and because Europe doesn't really like the idea of having a Muslim country on its doorstep.

SultanOfSwing Jan 27th 2017 5:42 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163362)
Yep. It's shit. God knows she has paid her dues in the UK but taking British citizenship will strip of her of her original nationality unfortunately. There are growing numbers of immigrants and mixed-race voters in her homeland these days and a lot of politicians there are pushing for change but it sadly looks unlikely to happen anytime soon. I could potentially take her nationality and hold on to both but that would be exploiting a couple of loopholes in international law and would get me into trouble if I was caught.

The irony was that the test she took to become a UK permanent resident (yes there is actually an exam for that these days) is also the same one that she would need to take to become a citizen I think.

Yeah, that's a pain in the arse either way. I guess I take my dual citizenship for granted sometimes (and by extension my wife's ability to become a dual UK-US citizen too if she do desired).

mrken30 Jan 27th 2017 5:50 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12163366)
Yeah, that's a pain in the arse either way. I guess I take my dual citizenship for granted sometimes (and by extension my wife's ability to become a dual UK-US citizen too if she do desired).

The US will never make it easy to give up citizenship when it's a revenue stream for all USCs to pay taxes.

SultanOfSwing Jan 27th 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12163373)
The US will never make it easy to give up citizenship when it's a revenue stream for all USCs to pay taxes.

Yeah, there is that.

I don't know that many US citizens living abroad find themselves actually having to pay additional taxes, though. Not unless they're super rich or something.

EMR Jan 27th 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163306)
The EU will (hopefully) decide what is best for the EU and that is precisely what the EU should do.

If they do make a decision out of spite or for some other reason apart from the economic interest of EU citizens then that's their problem.

What is best for the EU may not be what brexiters want, they will just have to accept it ..
The only spite is coming from the brexit camp.
A vote to leave is a vote to leave.
When we leave brexiters should just shut up and accept that they have got what they voted for ,whatever the repercussions.
But I doubt they will, it will always be the fault of someone else.

DaveLovesDee Jan 27th 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163301)
Yeah as someone with a foreign spouse who cannot take British citizenship I have to say that one terrifies the hell out of me. It actually scares me to leave the country again because if my better half lost her UK ILR while we were overseas then I don't know how in the hell I would be able to bring her back.

And that's why many Brits have taken advantage of EU free movement and the Surinder Singh judgement to bring their spouses home.


EU rules and loopholes have been allowing Europeans to bypass the British restrictions for years. Hopefully after Brexit spousal sponsorship rules can be a bit more relaxed and sensible than they are now because the current system basically punishes UK citizens while making it a lot easier for holders of other EU passports.
I think that's highly unlikely, because the Home Office won't want to allow a reduction in the income requirement after fighting a legal challenge through the High Court and 2013 and Appeal Court in 2014, which went to the Supreme Court last year. The decision on that hasn't been given yet.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163306)
The EU will (hopefully) decide what is best for the EU and that is precisely what the EU should do.

Which has been what the UK as part of the EU has been doing for years. It's got pretty much nearly every concession it as for, including a rebate and opt-outs from the Euro and Schengen.


If they do make a decision out of spite or for some other reason apart from the economic interest of EU citizens then that's their problem.
Actually, it's the UK's problem. And the EU won't give the UK something for nothing, which is how we got all the concessions we previously got out of the EU. We're apparently leaving, and if we want anything from the EU such as a free trade deal, customs union or financial services passporting, it's going to cost us something in return.

The EU is not going to give us a better deal (or as good as) outside the EU than we get inside the EU.

EMR Jan 27th 2017 6:06 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163364)
Oh come on. You know full well that even if Turkey met every requirement on that list and agreed to give up all claims to Cyprus forever, the EU would still come up with some BS reason as to why Turkish accession wasn't possible.

Let's face it, the EU has never even realistically wanted Turkey to join. They just strung the Turkish along to keep them in check and because Europe doesn't really like the idea of having a Muslim country on its doorstep.

Turkey is on its doorstep , unless its moved recently.

DaveLovesDee Jan 27th 2017 6:13 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163362)
The irony was that the test she took to become a UK permanent resident (yes there is actually an exam for that these days) is also the same one that she would need to take to become a citizen I think.

The Life in the UK test. Even EU nationals have to take it to apply for UK citizenship.

Have you tried doing it. Most of the stuff appears to be useless trivia. Here are some practice tests

When it first came out, some of the answers were wrong, and the wrong answer scored the points. Of course, if you put the correct answers to those questions, you didn't score the points.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12163364)
because Europe doesn't really like the idea of having a Muslim country on its doorstep.

I thought you said Turkey was a secular country?

Dick Dasterdly Jan 27th 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Spain wants to start Brexit trade talks as soon as possible - Business Insider


Spanish government officials want to start negotiating a trade deal with the UK to take effect after Brexit,
going against the official position of key negotiators in Brussels.

Dick Dasterdly Jan 27th 2017 7:36 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Dublin might have to opt for ‘Irexit’ and quit EU, says Irish diplomat - Belfast Newsletter


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