British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

morpeth Jan 12th 2017 7:31 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149428)
Look up the word 'Bharat', look up the history of the Indus valley civilisation and the unification by religion across the subcontinent. There are still 29 separate States, still warring (in words) :lol: Do you watch Indian TV? certainly you do, otherwise you would not be such an expert.:lol::lol:

The British had guns. They had the backing if needed of a much larger army. The Hindus were largely a passive people, they were also kept in place by keeping them poor by taxation and land grabs and it only needs the presence of a few soldiers in each area to keep such people in order. There were many deaths and atrocities. Anyway you were there you know it all.:lol:

Of course it all started by trade and trade deals that went horribly wrong because of takeover by one side.:lol:

Just thought--you are correct --"No British no India as we know it today"---It would have been infinitely wealthier today if they had been able to keep all their assets.

The British had less than 2,500 civil servants in India by 1947, and the majority of troops in India were Indian, so clearly the Indian's themselves administered much of British rule.

The argument that India would have been infinitely wealthier today to be considered objectively would need to take into account (a) what was India like before the British came and would the trends then in place have led to an "infinitely" wealthier India ? (b) were the advancements Britain made in education, laws, transportation, a democratic system adopted by India, etc such that in the long run a foundation was established that India that will permit/ has permitted substantial growth. (c) were countries that were not colonized , or colonized by others, show better economic growth than that in India under the British ?

EMR Jan 12th 2017 7:34 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149428)
Look up the word 'Bharat', look up the history of the Indus valley civilisation and the unification by religion across the subcontinent. There are still 29 separate States, still warring (in words) :lol: Do you watch Indian TV? certainly you do, otherwise you would not be such an expert.:lol::lol:

The British had guns. They had the backing if needed of a much larger army. The Hindus were largely a passive people, they were also kept in place by keeping them poor by taxation and land grabs and it only needs the presence of a few soldiers in each area to keep such people in order. There were many deaths and atrocities. Anyway you were there you know it all.:lol:

Of course it all started by trade and trade deals that went horribly wrong because of takeover by one side.:lol:

Just thought--you are correct --"No British no India as we know it today"---It would have been infinitely wealthier today if they had been able to keep all their assets.

Not no British India but No Inda as we know it.
Who buillt the schools, universities that educated the elite who took over from the British..
Do you think India would have emerged had it been divided up between the French, British and Portuguese maybe even the Dutch.
It would look ,iike much of Africa and what a mess that is.,
India owes its existence to the British, good and bad..
There would be no desis but for British India . No 1 million plus immigrants from India but for the British.

morpeth Jan 12th 2017 7:41 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149369)
I was not suggesting increasing Commonwealth nationals, just that all are admitted according the their skills and need.

Non EU-migrants are limited by the Commonwealth immigrants Act, those from the EU have 'free movement'.

Rather ironic that the latter we are supposed to welcome in order to be friendly to past enemies and the former we should forget the help they gave to defeat those enemies when, we were in fact occupants and invaders of 'their' countries'!

Is the ability to migrate to the UK a fair recompense for a century of looting their countries? It would have been if they were made welcome.

My ancestors were enslaved by the Romans, therefore a fair recompense would be reparations to be made by the descendants of the Romans. I will submit my claim for reparations to the government in Rome.

Imagine if immigration worldwide was based on every injustice of history.

Seriously though, immigration should be allowed if it is a benefit to Britain, and based on whether the majority of the population wants it. There has to be some numerical limit whatever that may be, and consideration for those who are British and struggling economically, and what promotes social cohesion. This is just common sense.

Fredbargate Jan 12th 2017 7:49 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12149511)
The EU has more to lose from hard Brexit than the UK, Mark Carney says


"The EU has more to lose from Brexit than the UK, the Governor of the Bank of England has said as he admitted that Britain's economy will defy his own gloomy forecasts and grow at a faster rate than expected.

Mark Carney conceded that Brexit is no longer the biggest domestic risk to Britain's economy after issuing a series of dire warnings about the consequences of a leave vote in the run up to the EU referendum.

The Bank of England is now “very likely” to improve its economic forecast next month, Mr Carney said as he said he was “surprised” that the economic slowdown that he forecast has not materialised."

This is what some of us on the leave side have been saying more months unlike the doom mongers on the remain side.

Carney has finally listened to us, but I still think he should be replaced.

amideislas Jan 12th 2017 7:54 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12149511)
The EU has more to lose from hard Brexit than the UK, Mark Carney says


"The EU has more to lose from Brexit than the UK, the Governor of the Bank of England has said as he admitted that Britain's economy will defy his own gloomy forecasts and grow at a faster rate than expected.

Mark Carney conceded that Brexit is no longer the biggest domestic risk to Britain's economy after issuing a series of dire warnings about the consequences of a leave vote in the run up to the EU referendum.

The Bank of England is now “very likely” to improve its economic forecast next month, Mr Carney said as he said he was “surprised” that the economic slowdown that he forecast has not materialised."

Let's see what happens if the UK leaves the EU.

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 8:10 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12149717)
The British had less than 2,500 civil servants in India by 1947, and the majority of troops in India were Indian, so clearly the Indian's themselves administered much of British rule.

The argument that India would have been infinitely wealthier today to be considered objectively would need to take into account (a) what was India like before the British came and would the trends then in place have led to an "infinitely" wealthier India ? (b) were the advancements Britain made in education, laws, transportation, a democratic system adopted by India, etc such that in the long run a foundation was established that India that will permit/ has permitted substantial growth. (c) were countries that were not colonized , or colonized by others, show better economic growth than that in India under the British ?


The British were there a hundred years, obviously local people were involved in administration, they had to earn money to live!
They were involved in all areas. As I have said before there were often good relationships 'on the ground'. It was the Government back in Britain who ruled all and insisted on apartheid.

The same would probably have happened in th UK, if Germany had invaded in WW1 the british would have cooperated in administration.

Agree that the changes in the law and the Parliamentary system have been useful, as I have pointed out education was there in India when the British were still in caves!

What would have happened to India without a 100 years of foreign rule is impossible to know.
UK a hundred years ago was quite different to now.

Transportation would surely have developed without the British if they had had the freedom to do it. The British built the railways for their own selves.

"Economic growth under the British"?
I think you should ask the question would British economic growth have been the same without the colonies.
There was 80-90% dire poverty in India when the British left. Are you saying we should praise the British for that?

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 8:25 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12149718)
Not no British India but No Inda as we know it.
Who buillt the schools, universities that educated the elite who took over from the British..
Do you think India would have emerged had it been divided up between the French, British and Portuguese maybe even the Dutch.
It would look ,iike much of Africa and what a mess that is.,
India owes its existence to the British, good and bad..
There would be no desis but for British India . No 1 million plus immigrants from India but for the British.

As I said above Indians had education long before Britain existed as Britain.

There were French and Portuguese in India.

Read some history ---the many millions who died in the 16 great famines due to the poverty caused by taxation (to fund the UK) the land and assets stripped.
Even the educated "elite" had no personal possessions just land to support themselves.

Immigrants to the UK probably not, nor British immigrants to India.

Should we congratulate the Britain who took over the colonies had slaves, exploited populations all because they were better at making and using weapons. Surely we should be pleased that we are now 'better than that'!

(You are constantly criticising others as racist----
your views that colonisation was good for the illiterate little brown people and they should be grateful----????)

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 8:34 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12149721)
My ancestors were enslaved by the Romans, therefore a fair recompense would be reparations to be made by the descendants of the Romans. I will submit my claim for reparations to the government in Rome.

Imagine if immigration worldwide was based on every injustice of history.

Seriously though, immigration should be allowed if it is a benefit to Britain, and based on whether the majority of the population wants it. There has to be some numerical limit whatever that may be, and consideration for those who are British and struggling economically, and what promotes social cohesion. This is just common sense.

Yes I agree with you. The past is the past that is why there is the Commonwealth and present day good relationships between countries.

The problem is that many today have no idea of past history and why some immigrants came to the UK.

GeniB Jan 12th 2017 8:39 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12148883)
Perhaps the xenophobics are those that think the world consists of the EU members or even just Europe.
There is a big wide world out there and the majority of it is not a member of the EU. The ignorance about people outside of Europe and free movement of the EU members rather than an equal immigration policy for immigrants from worldwide is a danger for the future.


And... Once again Bipat you completely ignore the title of this post and bring a completely irrelevant view point to the discussion. The UK's relationship with the rest of the world is as complex as the one with the EU. However they entered into an agreement with the Eu.Joined a club,signed documents to that effect. That's what's being discussed here...

p.s well aware this answer will arrive many pages further on in that discussion :blink:

EMR Jan 12th 2017 8:40 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149738)
As I said above Indians had education long before Britain existed as Britain.

There were French and Portuguese in India.

Read some history ---the many millions who died in the 16 great famines due to the poverty caused by taxation (to fund the UK) the land and assets stripped.
Even the educated "elite" had no personal possessions just land to support themselves.

Immigrants to the UK probably not, nor British immigrants to India.

Should we congratulate the Britain who took over the colonies had slaves, exploited populations all because they were better at making and using weapons. Surely we should be pleased that we are now 'better than that'!

I think it is you who should read the 18th early 19th century history of your adopted country.
The critical date when the British with their local allies emerged as the dominant local power in Bengal was 1757.
The Indus valley is not India, just as small part,
A nation that dd not exist before and would not exist in its current firm but for the British emerging as the strongest of the colonial powers who wanted to control the sub continent..
Our colonial past which is , your colonial past good and bad is a matter of recorded history and you should not try to re write it.
No British rule, No India as it is now.
The British did not cause the famines, the droughts, the floods, where did you dream that up.
The ruling families of India lived in immense wealth .
You really do not know as much as you think..
I am not ashamed of our colonial past of events that took place almost 250 years ago.
It happened.
They may have an influence on some events today but should not dominate them.
We owe a debt of gratitude to those who fought alongside us and maybe to some of their children, but not to their grand children or great grand children..

Assanah Jan 12th 2017 8:41 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12149511)
The EU has more to lose from hard Brexit than the UK, Mark Carney says


"The EU has more to lose from Brexit than the UK, the Governor of the Bank of England has said as he admitted that Britain's economy will defy his own gloomy forecasts and grow at a faster rate than expected.

Mark Carney conceded that Brexit is no longer the biggest domestic risk to Britain's economy after issuing a series of dire warnings about the consequences of a leave vote in the run up to the EU referendum.

The Bank of England is now “very likely” to improve its economic forecast next month, Mr Carney said as he said he was “surprised” that the economic slowdown that he forecast has not materialised."

Are you naive? That is diplomacy at full swing. Incidentally or purely by accident, German newspaper are publishing now:
1. BOOM - Germany's economy is surprising everybody and increasing by leaps and bounds, defying all forecast and Brexit doomsayers.
2. German managers are unconcerned with regards to Brexit. 91% don't expect a strong influence of Brexit on their company. Over a quarter actually expect growth because of Brexit - snatching up business from British companies.
3. The German bank supervision is considering applications by banks from London expecting them to move to Germany after Brexit.

GeniB Jan 12th 2017 8:54 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12148882)
I don't think that he has ever said that. Like me, Dick has said that he believes in positive skills-based immigration and an equal system for handling all non-British citizens.

That's not closing off your borders and your minds. That is acting sensibly.


Are you sure your not Dick by another name? Still if your that close that you can speak for him?
Believing in positive skills based immigration is elitist,discriminatory, not to mention a tad on the control freak side.
The Netherlands operated such a policy ,My OH was head hunted for such a high skill job (no matter that the UK paid for his expensive education etc they failed to pay him enough ) He certainly blossomed in NL. His family did not.

We of course only found that out way down the line. I and my D's (also highly educated) were actively discriminated against. When they left Uni they both tried for one year apiece to get jobs in NL. They were continually given vague reasons why they could not be employed .They got the message . They moved abroad and the family ties to NL were broken, This is using people as throwaways,Not building a country

Again this will come way past the original post.. Can't spend this much time on here:starsmile:

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 9:38 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
[QUOTE=EMR;12149750]I think it is you who should read the 18th early 19th century history of your adopted country.
A nation that dd not exist before and would not exist in its current firm but for the British energing as the strongest of the colonial powers who wsnted to control the sub continent..
Our colonial past which is , your colonial past good and bad is a matter of recorded history and you should not try to re write it.
No British rule, No India as it is now.
The british did not cause the famines, the droughts, the floods, where did you dream that up.
The ruling families of India lived in immense wealth .
You really do not know as much as you think..
I am not ashamed of our colonial past of event that took place 250years ago.
It happened.
They may have an influence on some evrents today but should not dominate them.
We owe a debt of grstitude to thiose eho fought alongside us and maybe to some of their children, but not to their grand chikdren or great grandvhildren..[/
QUOTE]

Apologies for continuing this topic but the ignorance is appalling.

The deaths in the great famines were due to the dire poverty caused by taxation, for British use ---IN Britain they could not stock food, they could not buy machinery etc etc. There was also disease caused by malnutrition, death of cattle so no milk. There were no medical facilities for the poor.
The weather conditions, droughts, floods have been exactly the same since the British left but no great famines since.

The ruling families had great wealth, but they had to give a great deal of it to the British and they were a minority of the people.

"250" years ago, they were there until 1947.

No we do not owe any gratitude now, but perhaps a little respect from those like yourself who conveniently forget not just the war heroes but the financial gain in the industrial revolution etc. from all the colonies.
(I do not just need to read, 50 years of talking to those who actually lived in the 1800s was quite useful)'.

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 9:44 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 12149749)
And... Once again Bipat you completely ignore the title of this post and bring a completely irrelevant view point to the discussion. The UK's relationship with the rest of the world is as complex as the one with the EU. However they entered into an agreement with the Eu.Joined a club,signed documents to that effect. That's what's being discussed here...

p.s well aware this answer will arrive many pages further on in that discussion :blink:

Profound apologies.
However it is relevant to the discussion when those who are pro-remain in the EU, refer to those who view trade with the rest of the world as more important for the future; are described as Xenophobic.

Yes we joined 'the club' but we are now leaving, whether this was the right decision is now irrelevant. It is the future that is important and as I have said there is a lot of world outside of the EU countries--including the rest of Europe.

Assanah Jan 12th 2017 9:49 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149791)
Profound apologies.
However it is relevant to the discussion when those who are pro-remain in the EU, refer to those who view trade with the rest of the world as more important for the future; are described as Xenophobic.

Yes we joined 'the club' but we are now leaving, whether this was the right decision is now irrelevant. It is the future that is important and as I have said there is a lot of world outside of the EU countries--including the rest of Europe.

Yes, we know that there is a whole world outside of Europe. Imagine that. We all know that in future these countries will become more and more important to us....that was big news about 20 years ago. We (especailly Germany) are already trading with these countries big time. Thanks for trying to illuminate us Europeans. Maybe you, in turn, can now also understand that the whole world does comprise a lot more countries than only India.


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