British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost Jan 10th 2017 8:09 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12148416)
Where did I say that?

You didn't. It was just that you mentioned exclusionary nationalism so I'm interested in your opinion.

Essentially, do you think that a country should admit immigrants or refugees even if it is to that nation's own detriment?

scrubbedexpat099 Jan 10th 2017 8:23 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12148468)
Essentially, do you think that a country should admit immigrants or refugees even if it is to that nation's own detriment?

Obviously yes.

That is how societies rise and fall.

DaveLovesDee Jan 10th 2017 8:31 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12148462)
Do you seriously think anyone cares a toss about such petty Eu regulations anymore ? :rofl:

The EU will care, and so should the UK. Because if the UK can't follow the rules, then why should the EU when it comes to our Brexit negotiations?

But all the Leavers will focus on is the EU being difficult, not the UK government being idiots.

EMR Jan 10th 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12148468)
You didn't. It was just that you mentioned exclusionary nationalism so I'm interested in your opinion.

Essentially, do you think that a country should admit immigrants or refugees even if it is to that nation's own detriment?

Your question is just a matter of opinion, not a fact.
Therefore is is a false premise.

SultanOfSwing Jan 10th 2017 9:23 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12148462)
Do you seriously think anyone cares a toss about such petty Eu regulations anymore ? :rofl:

Look at this edgy mother****er. I bet he even pretended he went outside and spoke to real people today as well.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12148468)
You didn't. It was just that you mentioned exclusionary nationalism so I'm interested in your opinion.

Essentially, do you think that a country should admit immigrants or refugees even if it is to that nation's own detriment?

I mentioned unchecked, exclusionary nationalism. Countries acting in their own interest while still maintaining a humanitarian perspective isn't the same as saying "we're the best and screw everyone else, even if it is due to our actions in some way that they are displaced and homeless".

I think it's an incredibly disingenuous thing to say that admitting immigrants and refugees is objectively detrimental and if I were more of an arsehole than I already am, I might make a suggest that it is hiding a very thin veil of racism, or at least xenophobia.

The 'my country, right or wrong' attitude; people who think a debt of gratitude is owed to a strip of land just because that's where they happened to be born; people who think the needs of the state outrank the needs and rights of the individual. That's what I am opposed to.

scrubbedexpat099 Jan 10th 2017 9:53 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12148543)
Look at this edgy mother****er. I bet he even pretended he went outside and spoke to real people today as well.



I mentioned unchecked, exclusionary nationalism. Countries acting in their own interest while still maintaining a humanitarian perspective isn't the same as saying "we're the best and screw everyone else, even if it is due to our actions in some way that they are displaced and homeless".

I think it's an incredibly disingenuous thing to say that admitting immigrants and refugees is objectively detrimental and if I were more of an arsehole than I already am, I might make a suggest that it is hiding a very thin veil of racism, or at least xenophobia.

The 'my country, right or wrong' attitude; people who think a debt of gratitude is owed to a strip of land just because that's where they happened to be born; people who think the needs of the state outrank the needs and rights of the individual. That's what I am opposed to.

Trying to think of one example where that has ended well.

Lion in Winter Jan 10th 2017 9:58 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12148543)
The 'my country, right or wrong' attitude; people who think a debt of gratitude is owed to a strip of land just because that's where they happened to be born; people who think the needs of the state outrank the needs and rights of the individual. That's what I am opposed to.

To which I would add, there is no valuable definition of patriotism that does not include having a better vision for one's country and that includes the values and behavior of that country's citizens. These things are a nation's self interest.

In my book, such values and behavior do not include rampant nationalism (note to DG - nationalism is not the same as patriotism), nor the failure to take some responsibility for the state of the rest of the world and those in it that are not doing as well. And yes, that might mean letting "foreigners" live in your country, and it definitely includes a broader definition of "self interest" than simply "keeping out the foreigners".

Dick Dasterdly Jan 10th 2017 10:07 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12148491)
The EU will care, and so should the UK. Because if the UK can't follow the rules, then why should the EU when it comes to our Brexit negotiations?

But all the Leavers will focus on is the EU being difficult, not the UK government being idiots.

It's obviously escaped your notice, many other Eu member countries are now telling the Eu to stick their regulations and orders where the Sun don't shine.

The negotiation rule is petty beyond believe as well as totally unenforceable and a dumb attempt to gag free speech, as countries will continue to discuss and negotiate with each other matters that concern them most, regardless what the Brussels Dictatorship tries to do.

:cool:

DaveLovesDee Jan 10th 2017 10:21 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12148589)
It's obviously escaped your notice, many other Eu member countries are now telling the Eu to stick their regulations and orders where the Sun don't shine.

Many? And what's the S*n got to do with it?


The negotiation rule is petty beyond believe as well as totally unenforceable and a dumb attempt to gag free speech, as countries will continue to discuss and negotiate with each other matters that concern them most, regardless what the Brussels Dictatorship tries to do.

:cool:
It's a good job you're not on our Brexit negotiating team.

EU member states can discuss things with each other as much as they want to, but until the UK exits the EU, it is still subject to the rules it agreed to.

Dick Dasterdly Jan 10th 2017 10:28 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12148607)
Many? And what's the S*n got to do with it?



It's a good job you're not on our Brexit negotiating team.

EU member states can discuss things with each other as much as they want to, but until the UK exits the EU, it is still subject to the rules it agreed to.

Obviously you're in favour of stifling free speech, though the Eu have no way of knowing what is being discussed anyway, so it's all rather pointless.

Much as nobody has a clue what is discussed in secret behind closed doors by the Eu Commision as they decide what form of catastrophe to inflict on the already long suffering member states next.

:cool:

DigitalGhost Jan 10th 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12148491)
The EU will care, and so should the UK. Because if the UK can't follow the rules, then why should the EU when it comes to our Brexit negotiations?

But all the Leavers will focus on is the EU being difficult, not the UK government being idiots.

You can start prep talks on it and those have already happened with countries such as India. You just can't enter into formal negotiations.

I think a good analogy would be getting a new job. You can go for an interview and discuss terms but nothing can really start to happen until you current job has ended.

DigitalGhost Jan 10th 2017 10:56 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12148543)
I think it's an incredibly disingenuous thing to say that admitting immigrants and refugees is objectively detrimental and if I were more of an arsehole than I already am, I might make a suggest that it is hiding a very thin veil of racism, or at least xenophobia.

I think there are obviously different degrees of immigration. Skilled immigration benefits society and the economy and is an example of positive immigration. Refugees and illegals represent negative immigration.

I'm would question the view of anyone that a country should be completely sealed from any type of immigration as much as you would however I also strongly believe that any immigration that takes place should be to the benefit of the local population. What the UK has seen over the last decade has sadly largely been the opposite of that.

DaveLovesDee Jan 11th 2017 1:06 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12148613)
Obviously you're in favour of stifling free speech, though the Eu have no way of knowing what is being discussed anyway, so it's all rather pointless.

Much as nobody has a clue what is discussed in secret behind closed doors by the Eu Commision as they decide what form of catastrophe to inflict on the already long suffering member states next.

:cool:

The EU Commission is comprised of one Commissioner from each EU member state. The 27 non-UK, EU Commissioners will discuss with their national governments what the group discusses.

The 28th EU member state's EU Commissioner won't be in those discussions because the EU internal discussions on their Brexit positions aren't something the UK will be involved in.

SultanOfSwing Jan 11th 2017 4:00 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12148633)
I think there are obviously different degrees of immigration. Skilled immigration benefits society and the economy and is an example of positive immigration. Refugees and illegals represent negative immigration.

I'm would question the view of anyone that a country should be completely sealed from any type of immigration as much as you would however I also strongly believe that any immigration that takes place should be to the benefit of the local population. What the UK has seen over the last decade has sadly largely been the opposite of that.

I was allowed to enter the US solely because I was engaged to a US citizen. That's it. I have no in-demand skills, I am not formally educated beyond a few years in university that went nowhere. There is nothing that I do, or can do that American couldn't already take care of. But even with all that, they let me in and now I sit here a naturalized US citizen after almost 12 years of residence - a lower-middle class relative nobody who keeps to himself and pays his taxes but in general doesn't really make much of a net difference either way to the US as a whole. Whereabouts in your 'degrees of immigration' do I provide some kind of a net positive benefit to the US? It can't just be that I'm white and come from Western Europe, can it?

Scamp Jan 11th 2017 5:15 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12148754)
I was allowed to enter the US solely because I was engaged to a US citizen. That's it. I have no in-demand skills, I am not formally educated beyond a few years in university that went nowhere. There is nothing that I do, or can do that American couldn't already take care of. But even with all that, they let me in and now I sit here a naturalized US citizen after almost 12 years of residence - a lower-middle class relative nobody who keeps to himself and pays his taxes but in general doesn't really make much of a net difference either way to the US as a whole. Whereabouts in your 'degrees of immigration' do I provide some kind of a net positive benefit to the US? It can't just be that I'm white and come from Western Europe, can it?

:goodpost:


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