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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Red Eric Jan 8th 2017 6:06 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Have we started again?

DaveLovesDee Jan 8th 2017 6:16 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12146058)
Have we started again?

Spoiler:
There were Oltermanni bad cheese puns. I figured it was time to Finnish!


I'm very sorry :rofl:

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 6:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12146042)
No, the UK joined a number of agreements, not just trade. We also signed up to many other things when we signed up to the EEC.

We've also signed up to many more agreements within the EEC/EU since then, and were an partner in the drafting of those agreements since we joined.

Yes, that is why the UK has decided to leave!

As I said the EU is not a country unlike Canada (the post I was replying to).
It is not up to the EU whether we leave or not it is not a 'declaration of independence'!

If you join a golf club take part in various organisational agreements you are not compelled to be a member for the rest of your life and have the membership fee taken out of your salary.:lol:

EMR Jan 8th 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146077)
Yes, that is why the UK has decided to leave!

As I said the EU is not a country unlike Canada (the post I was replying to).
It is not up to the EU whether we leave or not it is not a 'declaration of independence'!

If you join a golf club take part in various organisational agreements you are not compelled to be a member for the rest of your life and have the membership fee taken out of your salary.:lol:

Neither can you play the course as and when you want to for free.
If you want to play their course you have to pay.
Ie if the UK wants tarrif free access to the EU markets it will have to pay a price.

DaveLovesDee Jan 8th 2017 7:21 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12146042)
No, the UK joined a number of agreements, not just trade. We also signed up to many other things when we signed up to the EEC.

We've also signed up to many more agreements within the EEC/EU since then, and were an partner in the drafting of those agreements since we joined.


Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146077)
Yes, that is why the UK has decided to leave!

I've quoted my post to try to understand what you mean?

It appears you're suggesting that the Leave vote won because we'd helped draft, and signed, more treaties than there were when we joined..


As I said the EU is not a country unlike Canada (the post I was replying to).
It is not up to the EU whether we leave or not it is not a 'declaration of independence'!
Correct. It's not up to the EU if or when we leave. The UK alone will be responsible for that decision. What will be down to the EU will be whether or not the UK gets everything it wants from the exit negotiations without given away anything of value.


If you join a golf club take part in various organisational agreements you are not compelled to be a member for the rest of your life and have the membership fee taken out of your salary.:lol:
You're not required to remain a member of the same golf club forever, and you can be a member of more than one club. But you have to abide by the membership rules as long as you're a member though.

Those rules may change from time to time, usually through the consent of the membership.

Our EU payments aren't taken from our salary, we make a regular payment to the EU similar to a standing order or direct debit. The same way a golf club collects it's membership fees.

Novocastrian Jan 8th 2017 8:26 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146002)
It is a different situation.
The EU is a trade agreement, not a country.
The UK is a member country of a trade agreement, they have now voted to end membership.
There are 28 countries including the UK (at the moment) in the EU, 23 other European countries are not members of the EU.

There's where we differ. The EU is (and will remain to be) an example of how one can break down "nationalities" and begin to seed the idea that "countries" are an artificial construct.

**** it. Surely we've moved on a bit from the 14th to mid 20th century?

If the EU was merely a trade agreement then I wouldn't be so bothered by "Brexit". I'm not an economist so I'm not pretending to understand or be able to evaluate the economic outcome, but I deeply feel that undermining the EU (which is really what the loony leavers want) is a set-back for civilization.

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12146114)

1) It appears you're suggesting that the Leave vote won because we'd helped draft, and signed, more treaties than there were when we joined..



2)Correct. It's not up to the EU if or when we leave. The UK alone will be responsible for that decision. What will be down to the EU will be whether or not the UK gets everything it wants from the exit negotiations without given away anything of value.


3) Our EU payments aren't taken from our salary, we make a regular payment to the EU similar to a standing order or direct debit. The same way a golf club collects it's membership fees.

1)Yes, far more than when we joined the EEC. There has been a gradual move towards federalisation.
Gisela Stuart (the original Chair of the Brexit committee) was 'involved' in drafting the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, that is why she was so determined that we should leave.

2) Negotiation is for both sides to get as much as they can. Each side will have a 'bottom line'.

3) The salary remark was a joke-- did you see the smiley?
I was pointing out that it is not up to the rest of the EU members whether the UK leaves or not--- in answer to a post that suggested a vote by other members of the EU would want to prevent the UK from leaving!!!

Assanah Jan 8th 2017 8:41 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12146140)
There's where we differ. The EU is (and will remain to be) an example of how one can break down "nationalities" and begin to seed the idea that "countries" are an artificial construct.

**** it. Surely we've moved on a bit from the 14th to mid 20th century?

If the EU was merely a trade agreement then I wouldn't be so bothered by "Brexit". I'm not an economist so I'm not pretending to understand or be able to evaluate the economic outcome, but I deeply feel that undermining the EU (which is really what the loony leavers want) is a set-back for civilization.

I feel the same way. I always saw the EU as a move towards trust and friendship between former enemies. It is a shame that the UK is turning it's back on that.

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 8:46 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12146140)
There's where we differ. The EU is (and will remain to be) an example of how one can break down "nationalities" and begin to seed the idea that "countries" are an artificial construct.

**** it. Surely we've moved on a bit from the 14th to mid 20th century?

If the EU was merely a trade agreement then I wouldn't be so bothered by "Brexit". I'm not an economist so I'm not pretending to understand or be able to evaluate the economic outcome, but I deeply feel that undermining the EU (which is really what the loony leavers want) is a set-back for civilization.

So you would happily join up with the USA, Central and South America to become one State?

(The EU is a trade agreement between approx. just half the countries of Europe. It will carry on after the UK has left, possibly other European countries will join (if allowed! note that--- if allowed!).

How is that a set back for civilisation? The majority of the world's countries are not members of the EU. The UK will continue to trade and have good relationships elsewhere in the world and also with the EU countries.

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 8:50 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12146153)
I feel the same way. I always saw the EU as a move towards trust and friendship between former enemies. It is a shame that the UK is turning it's back on that.

Mrs May stated in her interview today that good relationships between the UK and the EU countries will continue.
Just as the UK maintains good relationships with Commonwealth countries---and UK was certainly previously an enemy!

EMR Jan 8th 2017 8:51 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146146)
1)Yes, far more than when we joined the EEC. There has been a gradual move towards federalisation.
Gisela Stuart (the original Chair of the Brexit committee) was 'involved' in drafting the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, that is why she was so determined that we should leave.

2) Negotiation is for both sides to get as much as they can. Each side will have a 'bottom line'.

3) The salary remark was a joke-- did you see the smiley?
I was pointing out that it is not up to the rest of the EU members whether the UK leaves or not--- in answer to a post that suggested a vote by other members of the EU would want to prevent the UK from leaving!!!

If you watched the May interview todsy you will have seen that none of the above concerns her and her right wing brexit ministers.
Her and their focus is on migration.
The EU treaties to whuch the UK is a signstory are clear if you want free market acess then free movement is a condition.
It is up to the UK not the other 27 members to accept this condition or not.

DaveLovesDee Jan 8th 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146146)
1)Yes, far more than when we joined the EEC. There has been a gradual move towards federalisation.

European 'federalism' isn't what you've been told it is


The true (continental as well as North American) definition was well summed up by Andreas Gross, the Swiss socialist under whose name the report was published. I doubt that even the most arch-Tory Eurosceptic could take exception to his front-cover summation: "Rather than constituting a model for an ever closer political union or a European state, federalism implies a process of balancing power in a differentiated political order which enables unity while guaranteeing diversity."

Most continental politicians would at one and the same time recognise, approve of and wish to apply that definition. Yet "federalism", in the context of political and media usage in Britain, has come to mean the creation and imposition of a European superstate, one centralised in Brussels. Two generations of opportunistic British journalists and politicians alike must shoulder the blame for such wilful misinterpretation and misuse.

Gisela Stuart (the original Chair of the Brexit committee) was 'involved' in drafting the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, that is why she was so determined that we should leave.
She couldn't have been that concerned, or she'd have resigned as Chair

She's also taken advantage of EU free movement by moving from her native Germany to the UK in 1974, and became a British Labour MP in 1997.

How's that for an opportunity only available because of EU rules?

If the free movement of EU nationals worries her that much, I'll donate towards her flight home. One-way.

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12146161)
If you watched the May interview todsy you will have seen that none of the above concerns her and her right wing brexit ministers.
Her and their focus is on migration.
The EU treaties to whuch the UK is a signstory are clear if you want free market acess then free movement is a condition.
It is up to the UK not the other 27 members to accept this condition or not.

I watched the interview. She answered the questions that were put to her.
She refused to answer the question about free market access, she just said there are several options. She is giving a statement tomorrow and will trigger Article 50 before the end of March.

(You keep going on about migration but you refuse to answer my question as to why you so much approve of free movement of people from EU countries but accept restrictions on people from non-EU countries.)

Bipat Jan 8th 2017 9:29 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12146167)
European 'federalism' isn't what you've been told it is

She couldn't have been that concerned, or she'd have resigned as Chair

She's also taken advantage of EU free movement by moving from her native Germany to the UK in 1974, and became a British Labour MP in 1997.

How's that for an opportunity only available because of EU rules?

If the free movement of EU nationals worries her that much, I'll donate towards her flight home. One-way.

I haven't been told about federalisation, apart from EU Law lectures, and also reading the Treaties and Constitution.

1974--before the EU. There are people originating from elsewhere in the world who have become UK politicians without 'free movement' between countries.

The ending of EU 'free movement' does not mean that people from EU countries will not be able to migrate to the UK as you well know.

DaveLovesDee Jan 8th 2017 9:35 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12146172)
(You keep going on about migration but you refuse to answer my question as to why you so much approve of free movement of people from EU countries but accept restrictions on people from non-EU countries.)

I don't know about EMR, but personally, free movement is a good thing. Though whether it's a matter for approval or disapproval is unclear. Does it need anyone's approval, is it a popularity contest?

He have free movement because it was one of the EEC treaties that we accepted when we joined in 1973 (free movement started in 1957) Single Market, Free Movement - gov.uk.


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