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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DaveLovesDee Dec 11th 2016 12:56 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12126628)
I keep asking the same question---why is it so difficult to fill in a visa for a work permit. Non-EU skilled workers seem to manage it!

The post you quoted had nothing to do with visas or work permits.

But to answer your question, no-one said it was difficult for EU nationals to fill in a form for a work permit, but EC/EU nationals have had free movement within the EC/EU since 1972 (44 years) (and some industries since 1957 (59 years)).

Fredbargate Dec 11th 2016 2:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12126614)
What do you think about that Fred? I found it very confusing as he said that Gibraltar wasn't part of the internal market and then a few seconds later that they wanted to remain in it.

He (and I suspect the people of Gibraltar) want to maintain free movement. How about you?

Gibraltar in Picardo's opinion requires access to and or the ability to passport financial services.

We have free movement of workers but we are not overburdened with educational, housing or health problems they create. We have sufficient problems in those areas ourselves.
We do not have VAT nor are we part of the single market in goods.
Also to the best of my knowledge we do not contribute to the EU budget.

Personally I feel the EU has let us and the Spanish workers down badly by failing to control Spain's antics at the frontier as well as in our territorial waters, and therefore that the political EU is a failure, something that we would be better off out of.

Bipat Dec 11th 2016 2:34 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12126640)
The post you quoted had nothing to do with visas or work permits.

But to answer your question, no-one said it was difficult for EU nationals to fill in a form for a work permit, but EC/EU nationals have had free movement within the EC/EU since 1972 (44 years) (and some industries since 1957 (59 years)).

The post I quoted--- "She said she would move on from the UK rather than apply for a visa to stay".
It was in reply to a post regarding EU citizens working outside the EU which will include the UK Post Brexit.

(Commonwealth citizens had free movement until 1962. Times change!)

Novocastrian Dec 11th 2016 4:48 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12126628)
I keep asking the same question---why is it so difficult to fill in a visa for a work permit. Non-EU skilled workers seem to manage it!

The thing is the majority of people in the EU (except it seems the UK) think of themselves as European first. Most of them have never known anything else and those who contemplate Europe before the EU (or it's predecessors) can seem the obvious advantages of the EU over fractured, competitive nation states.

Having to apply for permission to work abroad within Europe is simply foreign to them foreigners. Most, I suspect, will just move on.

Of course the unfortunate side effect of this will be the collapse of the UK economy. Ah well. I have other options, as I suppose you do too?

Bipat Dec 11th 2016 5:14 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 12126769)
The thing is the majority of people in the EU (except it seems the UK) think of themselves as European first. Most of them have never known anything else and those who contemplate Europe before the EU (or it's predecessors) can seem the obvious advantages of the EU over fractured, competitive nation states.

Having to apply for permission to work abroad within Europe is simply foreign to them foreigners. Most, I suspect, will just move on.

Of course the unfortunate side effect of this will be the collapse of the UK economy. Ah well. I have other options, as I suppose you do too?

I agree that those from other EU member countries are more likely to think of themselves as European than those from the UK, but European "first", what evidence do you have for that?

Only just over half of European countries are members of the EU.

DaveLovesDee Dec 11th 2016 5:23 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12126787)
Only just over half of European countries are members of the EU.

Your point is?

When an EU national considers themselves European, they don't only mean European Union.

I consider myself a European. Mind you, with my ancestry, I'm hardly likely to be mistaken for a South American or an Asian.

Bipat Dec 11th 2016 5:37 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12126791)
Your point is?

When an EU national considers themselves European, they don't only mean European Union.

I consider myself a European. Mind you, with my ancestry, I'm hardly likely to be mistaken for a South American or an Asian.

My point, was a doubt, if you read the post, is it European FIRST? Not French/Italian/German etc. FIRST?

The OP's previous post concerned 'free movement' within the EU.

Novocastrian Dec 11th 2016 5:50 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12126787)
I agree that those from other EU member countries are more likely to think of themselves as European than those from the UK, but European "first", what evidence do you have for that?

Anecdotal evidence I admit. But I have family in France and strong friendship connections in Germany who all think that way (as I do).

Despite all the nonsense about the EU being "in peril" because of resurgent nationalism in various countries, there's nowhere in the 28 states except Britain (sorry England & Wales) where other sentiments might prevail.

DaveLovesDee Dec 11th 2016 6:56 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12126798)
My point, was a doubt, if you read the post, is it European FIRST? Not French/Italian/German etc. FIRST?

The OP's previous post concerned 'free movement' within the EU.

I wasn't responding to the 'European first' part of your post. I thought that was clear enough.

Dick Dasterdly Dec 11th 2016 8:45 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
English, First.
British, Second
European. Somewhere along the line.
Eu citizen, Last and totally ashamed.

I think most European citizens are patriotic in relation to their own Nation, most especially those going back for several generations.

European doesn't have a great deal of meaning as against the huge variety of traditions, culture, languages, history etc etc etc of individual nations.

Visit a country outside of Europe and very few will be interested to know you're European, but more than likely will have varying degrees of interest in your country of origin.

The Eu's disatrous attempt at Empire building and the resultant reaction is further evidence that Eu citizens consider the requirements of their own nations to be the number one priority.

Red Eric Dec 12th 2016 6:02 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
It's funny you should say that Dick, because the EU conducts research into the matter of to what degree citizens of its member states feel they are "citizens of the EU". And - wouldn't you know it? - they publish the results for all to see.

You can find the latest report (from Spring 2016) on this link here PublicOpinion - European Commission from which you click on "Reports" and then the first item on the list, titled "European Citizenship". They've even put the English language version right at the top of the list!! (I guess there won't be much call for English on the EU websites once Brexit is complete :() Anyway, I digress.

Pages 14 - 17 are the relevant section. Two thirds of respondents feel they are citizens of the EU, up 2% on the previous half year survey.

Red Eric Dec 12th 2016 6:33 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126621)
I do not know enough to judge whether the Bank of England or NIESR are completely objective or not unduly influenced to political or ideological influence. I know in US many supporters of continued immigration of lower skilled workers do tend to have a political bas or lack of concern for the lower working class, so I guess that could make me- perhaps unfairly- a little skeptical of similar supporters in UK. You are correct one should try to be objective and judge on the best facts available.

Well I posted som information above about the independence of the NIESR, what sort of research it undertakes and how it is funded. Furthermore, it can hardly be said to be pro-government when this particular government is headed by someone who, during her time as Home Secretary, made it abundantly clear that she wanted to restrict numbers of immigrants to the tens of thousands and their report says that could seriously damage the economy.


Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126621)
Unless I am mistaken is there a numerical limit on number of European workers or asylum seekers ? Do not asylum seekers or refugees get immediate benefits while a returning British citizen from living abroad has to wait until they get some benefits ?

There isn't a limit on the number of EU citizens allowed to enter the UK to live, study or work but those citizens who exercise their rights must be able to support themselves. They have access to the labour market in order to do that - asylum seekers do not. As I understand it, part of the reason asylum seekers are debarred from working is that it makes it easier to remove them from the country if their claim is refused. The fewer links and ties the better because it's less likely an appeal court would find that they had established a life in the UK - I think that's how it goes.


Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126621)
As far as constant immigration I don't know why there should be any immigration unless beneficial for Britain. I don't know enough to be for or against Brexit but it seems a mess to implement. I do get impression there is a perception that the UK must have some level of immigration.

I think there's very little realism in the idea that there can be zero immigration regardless of whether that would be good for the country anyway. Once you start looking at the various categories of people who have a right to enter and remain (or ask for permission to do so), it's also unrealistic to think that you could simply skim off the "best applicants" and turn the rest down. And then you've got the matter of whether you might actually need some willing and able less educated or low skilled workers in certain sectors of the economy (if, say, it was a choice between keeping those sectors going or losing them abroad).

DaveLovesDee Dec 12th 2016 8:43 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126621)
Do not asylum seekers or refugees get immediate benefits while a returning British citizen from living abroad has to wait until they get some benefits ?

Asylum Support with strict conditions. £36 pw isn't a lot of money, and how should they feed themselves otherwise?

Habitual Residence Test makes it harder for benefit/health tourists to come over and get instant funds.

morpeth Dec 12th 2016 8:47 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12127158)
Well I posted som information above about the independence of the NIESR, what sort of research it undertakes and how it is funded. Furthermore, it can hardly be said to be pro-government when this particular government is headed by someone who, during her time as Home Secretary, made it abundantly clear that she wanted to restrict numbers of immigrants to the tens of thousands and their report says that could seriously damage the economy.


There isn't a limit on the number of EU citizens allowed to enter the UK to live, study or work but those citizens who exercise their rights must be able to support themselves. They have access to the labour market in order to do that - asylum seekers do not. As I understand it, part of the reason asylum seekers are debarred from working is that it makes it easier to remove them from the country if their claim is refused. The fewer links and ties the better because it's less likely an appeal court would find that they had established a life in the UK - I think that's how it goes.


I think there's very little realism in the idea that there can be zero immigration regardless of whether that would be good for the country anyway. Once you start looking at the various categories of people who have a right to enter and remain (or ask for permission to do so), it's also unrealistic to think that you could simply skim off the "best applicants" and turn the rest down. And then you've got the matter of whether you might actually need some willing and able less educated or low skilled workers in certain sectors of the economy (if, say, it was a choice between keeping those sectors going or losing them abroad).

Thank you for the informative post.

Why couldn't Britain just accept the best applicants and turn down the rest ? Doesn't Canada or Australia make approvals based on the skill sets of certain applicants ? As you mention other categories, is family reunification a big percentage of the total ?

EMR Dec 12th 2016 9:01 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12127215)
Thank you for the informative post.

Why couldn't Britain just accept the best applicants and turn down the rest ? Doesn't Canada or Australia make approvals based on the skill sets of certain applicants ? As you mention other categories, is family reunification a big percentage of the total ?

We do non EU migrants are subject to strict controls.
Free movement of ALL EU citizens across all 28 states is part of EU membership.
The recent trend has been increasing numbers of non Eu migrants which now make up over 50% .
Tne UK has a very low number compared to othe countries of refugees and asylum seekers.


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