British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

EMR Dec 10th 2016 8:08 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12126024)
Gambian leader Yahya Jammeh has rejected the result of the presidential election held earlier this month, a week after admitting defeat.

Mr Jammeh cited "abnormalities" in the vote and called for fresh elections.

Gambia leader Yahya Jammeh rejects election result - BBC News

Does this sound familiar to Remainers and Clinton supporters?

Its sounds very familiar to anyone who watches and listens to your hero Nigel Farage .
Its very undemocratic of leavers to support one of their campaign leaders who said on the night of the vote that 52,48 to remain would be too close to call.
That a close vote to remain would not end the calls for the UK to leave the EU.
Rather like their denials of the lies during the brexit campaign, typical two faced brexiteering.
There is not one brexiter on this firum who would have said, Vote over, we are staying in the EU, end of debate ".
Not one, two faced brexiteering.

EMR Dec 10th 2016 8:10 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by TGA (Post 12126023)
The remoaning continues


BBC

When was article 50 triggered.
You must know even if over 65million others of us do not.

EMR Dec 10th 2016 8:14 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12125815)
Yet another madcap Eu proposal dreamt up by a lefty nutter who would even make old Junkie seem quite intelligent by comparison.

Probably playing politics rather than making a serious properly researched credible proposal, with the main intention of increasing the outrage of the already outraged Remoaners.

Anyway if such a thing ever did come to pass, I wonder if those opting in will be happy to continue funding the corrupt Brussels fat cats lives of luxury and forking out more good money after bad, while much of the Eu is on the breadline and getting poorer ?

Personally I would be totally ashamed to be even remotely associated with the rotten to the core Brussel scumbags one day longer than was absolutely necessary,
though having said that I'll probably still enjoy my Brussel sprouts for Christmas Dinner. :cool:

Unlike you the majority of us believe in freedom of choice.

EMR Dec 10th 2016 8:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126046)
I am not saying UK benefits too generous, just that unless there is a decent incentive to get off benefits many will stay on.

The article refers to .5% wage growth I am unsure what the supporting data could be for that. I remember years ago I lived in a Canton in Switzerland and used to hear the argument all the time that the Swiss wouldn't do certain jobs- the Canton put in some very stringent measures for foreigners. The Canton itself then had problems finding people for certain jobs, so just raised wages enough until they could find locals willing to do that work.

I noticed in an area of Midwest the roofing business and effects on workers of more immigration of lower skilled workers- many local roofing contractors simply cant compete or do so by laying off local workers and hiring the newcomers, or holding wages down of existing workers. Rather hard to see what the benefit is of putting people out of work. I just question the economic models that defy common sense, and laws of supply and demand.( Whether overall effects of Brexit positive or negative is another matter).

The economc model is capitalism .
It is supply and demand, there is labour available that will accept the wages on offer from the employers.
Is your alternative to force employers to pay higher wages.
To have fixed prices, fixed wages. That is marxism.?

Red Eric Dec 10th 2016 8:40 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126046)
I am not saying UK benefits too generous, just that unless there is a decent incentive to get off benefits many will stay on.

As Dave explained in his excellent post, the incentive to get off benefits is the probability of being sanctioned for being deemed to be doing insufficient to secure a job.


Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126046)
The article refers to .5% wage growth I am unsure what the supporting data could be for that.

Don't know. However the Bank of England report which showed a very slight depressive effect of high immigration on wages in low-skilled work was seized upon readily enough as reason to reduce immigration by leaving the EU, so I suppose their research, which is available online, might be a reasonable read for starters.

morpeth Dec 10th 2016 9:19 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12126064)
The economc model is capitalism .
It is supply and demand, there is labour available that will accept the wages on offer from the employers.
Is your alternative to force employers to pay higher wages.
To have fixed prices, fixed wages. That is marxism.?

Well discussion of minimum wage a different issue.

At least in USA stagnant real wages, real unemployment stubbornly high, importing more lower skilled and less educated workers helps to keep wages down. I don't see that as a positive.

In theory Marxism would not have fixed wages or prices, but that also is another issue.

morpeth Dec 10th 2016 9:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12126070)
As Dave explained in his excellent post, the incentive to get off benefits is the probability of being sanctioned for being deemed to be doing insufficient to secure a job.


Don't know. However the Bank of England report which showed a very slight depressive effect of high immigration on wages in low-skilled work was seized upon readily enough as reason to reduce immigration by leaving the EU, so I suppose their research, which is available online, might be a reasonable read for starters.

Yes Dave's post excellent though a bit troubling I would think.

Yes I will probably look at the report, but I suspect as with the USA situation the models economists use have some faulty premises OR aren't focused enough on key sectors. High immigration of higher skilled workers, or those with capital, can be a benefit to economy while at same time importing lower skilled workers can keep down or reduce standards for the working class or lower skilled locals. I don't know enough about UK situation hence my questions.

In any case reduce supply of lower skilled and educated workers, wages for local lower skilled and educated workers will go up.

DaveLovesDee Dec 10th 2016 9:38 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126101)
Yes Dave's post excellent though a bit troubling I would think.

Troubling in what way?

Food banks say the rise in their use is down to the increased use of sanctions, but the DWP says it isn't.

I know who I believe.

EMR Dec 10th 2016 9:40 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126093)
Well discussion of minimum wage a different issue.

At least in USA stagnant real wages, real unemployment stubbornly high, importing more lower skilled and less educated workers helps to keep wages down. I don't see that as a positive.

In theory Marxism would not have fixed wages or prices, but that also is another issue.

Marxist economies do have fixed wages and prices, thst is why their economies fail.
Central control does not work.

Better educated workers would not result in higher wages.
If everyone had a degree we would still need people to sweep the streets, pack and deliver your amazon parcels. Pick your veg.
If people think that thec
work available is beneath them then alternative labour has to be available.
The value of the work also has an influence on wages.
Low skill work equates to low wages, what ever the source of labour or the qualifications of the workers.

I watched a discussion last night on the 4th industrial revolution, robotisation.
100,s millions if not more around the world will eventually be replaced by technology.
Amazon robots will pick your selection, pack it and even deliver it.
You taxi, bus, train will be driver less.
Etc etc.
The suggestion a life time wage, paid to those for their will not be any work available.
Today the immigrant, tomorrow, the robot, technology.

DaveLovesDee Dec 10th 2016 10:16 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Fredbargate (Post 12126021)
I don't recall any problems in my European travels before 1972 using nothing more than a passport.
A passport I still need to access Europe.

Travel for pleasure, or or to live and work in another EU country?.

One isn't covered by free movement rules.

This is worth a read too Free Movement in Europe: Past and Present.


In a way, this opening up of borders is a return to the past. Prior to the start of World War I in 1914, there were virtually no border controls or restrictions to labor mobility across the continent. During the war, however, the crossing of borders by foreigners began to be considered a security concern, and it was at this time that passports and visas were introduced in Europe.

Then in the 1950s, when Europe was beginning to recover from the devastation of World War II and experiencing a period of intense economic growth, labor mobility was again encouraged. Because the lack of skilled workers was seen as a threat to the economy, freedom of movement of qualified industrial workers was included in the treaties founding the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the current European Union, in 1957.

Over 8 million work permits were issued to foreigners in Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany (the original six members of the EEC) during the guest-worker period of 1958 to 1972. One-third of the foreign workers came from within the EEC; mainly from Italy, which was lagging behind in industrialization and suffered from high unemployment.
A limited form of free movement started in 1957 it seems.

Red Eric Dec 10th 2016 11:31 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12126109)
Marxist economies do have fixed wages and prices, thst is why their economies fail.
Central control does not work.

What about Vietnam? Or China, come to that?

Red Eric Dec 10th 2016 11:44 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126101)
Yes I will probably look at the report, but I suspect as with the USA situation the models economists use have some faulty premises OR aren't focused enough on key sectors. High immigration of higher skilled workers, or those with capital, can be a benefit to economy while at same time importing lower skilled workers can keep down or reduce standards for the working class or lower skilled locals. I don't know enough about UK situation hence my questions.

That BOE report's here : http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/resea...015/swp574.pdf


Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12126101)
In any case reduce supply of lower skilled and educated workers, wages for local lower skilled and educated workers will go up.

But if the rise is a mere 0.5% in 15 years and the price is, say, 5% of GDP, would it have been a worthwhile exercise, especially given that there are other more efficient and more certain ways of raising wages?

morpeth Dec 10th 2016 12:02 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12126108)
Troubling in what way?

Food banks say the rise in their use is down to the increased use of sanctions, but the DWP says it isn't.

I know who I believe.

Troubling unreasonable imposition of sanctions.

EMR Dec 10th 2016 12:15 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12126145)
What about Vietnam? Or China, come to that?

They are neither, they are rampant capitalism but still under a one party state whose senior members do very well from their economies.

morpeth Dec 10th 2016 12:15 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12126109)
Marxist economies do have fixed wages and prices, thst is why their economies fail.
Central control does not work.

Better educated workers would not result in higher wages.
If everyone had a degree we would still need people to sweep the streets, pack and deliver your amazon parcels. Pick your veg.
If people think that thec
work available is beneath them then alternative labour has to be available.
The value of the work also has an influence on wages.
Low skill work equates to low wages, what ever the source of labour or the qualifications of the workers.

I watched a discussion last night on the 4th industrial revolution, robotisation.
100,s millions if not more around the world will eventually be replaced by technology.
Amazon robots will pick your selection, pack it and even deliver it.
You taxi, bus, train will be driver less.
Etc etc.
The suggestion a life time wage, paid to those for their will not be any work available.
Today the immigrant, tomorrow, the robot, technology.

1. You notice I said "in theory" Marxism didn't have fixed prices and wages.
2. Yes of course low skilled jobs you mention always there, simply a matter of paying wages sufficient enough to attract local workers. If less supply wages will go up if demand for the labor stays the same..
3. Wages are in the long run a function of productivity and demand. To compete in Global economy of 21st century education, training, capital and favorable regulatory environment required.


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