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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Lion in Winter Dec 8th 2016 9:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12124832)
Lots of jobs becoming available in the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/business...at-12-year-low


Well let's hope that all those British nationals who were alleged to have been sent to the back of the queue for jobs, behind the dreaded immigrant, will be stepping up for these openings then.

Dick Dasterdly Dec 8th 2016 10:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12124892)
Well let's hope that all those British nationals who were alleged to have been sent to the back of the queue for jobs, behind the dreaded immigrant, will be stepping up for these openings then.

Surely something of a contradiction in view of the record number of Eu immigrants who have arrived in the country supposedly looking for work. :confused:

I sincerely hope you don't have them all down as being benefit scroungers, criminals and terrorists,

......or is that why you decribe them as "Dreaded Immigrants" ?

DaveLovesDee Dec 8th 2016 10:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12124922)
Surely something of a contradiction in view of the record number of Eu immigrants who have arrived in the country supposedly looking for work. :confused:

Not a contradiction.

Many of the EU nationals create jobs for other EU nationals, and for Brits.

EMR Dec 8th 2016 11:10 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12124922)
Surely something of a contradiction in view of the record number of Eu immigrants who have arrived in the country supposedly looking for work. :confused:

I sincerely hope you don't have them all down as being benefit scroungers, criminals and terrorists,

......or is that why you decribe them as "Dreaded Immigrants" ?

If unemployment rises as a result Dick and his like will point fingers .
Nothing to do with the economy a.
But if the number of jobs created increases and the jobless total does niot what then are complaing about.
What do they want, the the UK economy to falter so that they can claim that immigrants are competing with Brits for fewer jobs.
They are basically clueless.

TGA Dec 9th 2016 4:40 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12124932)
Not a contradiction.

Many of the EU nationals create jobs for other EU nationals, and for Brits.

what is the ratio of "Many EU nationals creating jobs for other EU nationals, and for Brits"
(a) sending any spare cash back to their countries
(b) claiming "in work" (or other) benefits for their families living here or sending it back home
(c)those taking low paid work keeping stopping wage growth

DaveLovesDee Dec 9th 2016 7:42 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by TGA (Post 12125096)
what is the ratio of "Many EU nationals creating jobs for other EU nationals, and for Brits"
(a) sending any spare cash back to their countries

They've earned their money, and can do what they like with it. As long as it's not funding terrorism.

No-one tells you where your money can be spent, nor do the rich listen to anyone who tells them to stop sending their money abroad to tax havens.


(b) claiming "in work" (or other) benefits for their families living here or sending it back home
If they're doing the same job as a Brit, why shouldn't they be able to claim the same in-work top-ups?

A better question would be 'when are employers going to pay wages at a level that doesn't need subsiding by the government?'


(c)those taking low paid work keeping stopping wage growth
If the unemployed don't take the low-paid jobs, they get their money stopped. If they do take them, they're stopping wage growth.

If you're trying to claim that EU migrants are taking jobs that pay less than the legal minimum wage, then those employers should be the target of your ire. Those who take the jobs want to work, not claim benefits.

There will be many Brits who are also paid less 'under the table' aka 'cash in hand'. But that doesn't fit the immigrant-bashing, does it?

Red Eric Dec 9th 2016 8:01 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by TGA (Post 12125096)
what is the ratio of "Many EU nationals creating jobs for other EU nationals, and for Brits"

...

(c)those taking low paid work keeping stopping wage growth

Aren't you one of those pillocks who wants to kick the arses of the lazy unemployed off their sofas and up to the other end of the country for a few hours of carrot digging or whatever?

morpeth Dec 9th 2016 9:08 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12125172)
They've earned their money, and can do what they like with it. As long as it's not funding terrorism.

No-one tells you where your money can be spent, nor do the rich listen to anyone who tells them to stop sending their money abroad to tax havens.



If they're doing the same job as a Brit, why shouldn't they be able to claim the same in-work top-ups?

A better question would be 'when are employers going to pay wages at a level that doesn't need subsiding by the government?'



If the unemployed don't take the low-paid jobs, they get their money stopped. If they do take them, they're stopping wage growth.

If you're trying to claim that EU migrants are taking jobs that pay less than the legal minimum wage, then those employers should be the target of your ire. Those who take the jobs want to work, not claim benefits.

There will be many Brits who are also paid less 'under the table' aka 'cash in hand'. But that doesn't fit the immigrant-bashing, does it?

I haven't studied matter but on recent trip to UK I had observation that the way the benefit system is structured, there is a lot of disincentive for lower skilled British workers to take lower wage jobs as the benefit system makes it advantageous to stay on benefits and perhaps make some cash on the side. Perhaps if less EU workers this could have effect of driving wages in lower paid jobs up to point where it is more advantageous to work than live off benefits,

I went to government website and there is a calculator there of what one would net if one started working part time, or full time, the result ( if criteria I understood correctly) is it would be quite normal for many to stay on benefits as long as they could especially if they make a bit for cash jobs. My first thought was if benefits phased out at a slower rate as people took jobs perhaps some on benefits would be more likely to work than stay on system, and if there was a bit less migration from lower-skilled workers wages would grow at a higher rate.

I haven't studied matter and I am sure there are other factors to consider, but it doesn't seem irrational for many to stay on benefits as long as they can considering their skill levels and current wage levels.

EMR Dec 9th 2016 9:20 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
3

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12125209)
I haven't studied matter but on recent trip to UK I had observation that the way the benefit system is structured, there is a lot of disincentive for lower skilled British workers to take lower wage jobs as the benefit system makes it advantageous to stay on benefits and perhaps make some cash on the side. Perhaps if less EU workers this could have effect of driving wages in lower paid jobs up to point where it is more advantageous to work than live off benefits,

I went to government website and there is a calculator there of what one would net if one started working part time, or full time, the result ( if criteria I understood correctly) is it would be quite normal for many to stay on benefits as long as they could especially if they make a bit for cash jobs. My first thought was if benefits phased out at a slower rate as people took jobs perhaps some on benefits would be more likely to work than stay on system, and if there was a bit less migration from lower-skilled workers wages would grow at a higher rate.

I haven't studied matter and I am sure there are other factors to consider, but it doesn't seem irrational for many to stay on benefits as long as they can considering their skill levels and current wage levels.

4 milliion living below the poverty line hardly suggests that living on benefits or taking a low wage job supported by benefits is an ideal choice.
UK governments scared of inflation have encouraged a low wage economy topped off by benefits.
Higher wages leads to higher costs which leads to higher inflation which leads to higher interest rates etc etc.
Encouraging employment albeit low waged. restricted hours has been thought better for the economy by our past governments.
It is the availability of work not benefits that has attracted EU migrants.

Ingles Dec 9th 2016 9:48 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
:blink:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...nced-than-ever

morpeth Dec 9th 2016 12:19 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12125214)
3

4 milliion living below the poverty line hardly suggests that living on benefits or taking a low wage job supported by benefits is an ideal choice.
UK governments scared of inflation have encouraged a low wage economy topped off by benefits.
Higher wages leads to higher costs which leads to higher inflation which leads to higher interest rates etc etc.
Encouraging employment albeit low waged. restricted hours has been thought better for the economy by our past governments.
It is the availability of work not benefits that has attracted EU migrants.

I have no idea from observation or study how many of the 4 million you mention consider living off benefits consider it an ideal situation but wouldn't there be a percentage who simply have made that choice, otherwise why do some not take jobs migrants take ?

Higher wages if unaccompanied by increased productivity may cause inflation. But is there any evidence politicians have deliberately sought to keep wages low or are wages low as a consequence of other factors- economic trends, unintended consequences of government policies, simply over-supply of workers from EU willing to work for lower wages ? ( I dont know answer just curious).

EMR Dec 9th 2016 12:30 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12125289)
I have no idea from observation or study how many of the 4 million you mention consider living off benefits consider it an ideal situation but wouldn't there be a percentage who simply have made that choice, otherwise why do some not take jobs migrants take ?

Higher wages if unaccompanied by increased productivity may cause inflation. But is there any evidence politicians have deliberately sought to keep wages low or are wages low as a consequence of other factors- economic trends, unintended consequences of government policies, simply over-supply of workers from EU willing to work for lower wages ? ( I dont know answer just curious).

There is no over supply, eg, unemployment has fallen from over 2 million despite the number of migrants both EU and non EU.
The numbers employed in the UK is at a record high.
You are right UK productivity is far too low.
Low wages with the the support of benefits for the low pay has obviously contributed to the rise in employment and the rise in profits for the companies who employ.
It costs government less to pay a top up of benefits rather than a 100% unemployment and benefits.
Unemployment numbers are also one of the factors that lose governments elections..

morpeth Dec 9th 2016 12:44 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12125294)
There is no over supply, eg, unemployment has fallen from over 2 million despite the number of migrants both EU and non EU.
The numbers employed in the UK is at a record high.
You are right UK productivity is far too low.
Low wages with the the support of benefits for the low pay has obviously contributed to the rise in employment and the rise in profits for the companies who employ.
It costs government less to pay a top up of benefits rather than a 100% unemployment and benefits.
Unemployment numbers are also one of the factors that lose governments elections..

If wages are too low, and undoubtedly part of reason some choose to live off benefits, then how would increasing the supply of lower skilled workers not mean there isnt an "over-supply" in terms of wages being kept low ?

I agree it may be smart to have the top-up for benefits, but is it enough ? I went to the UK government website, seems very little additional of benefit in working many low wage jobs than just staying on benefits and making some cash on the side- it appears that maybe there should be more top-up benefits to create more incentive to work.

How is unemployment calculated in UK ? For example in USA the official unemployment rate very misleading as it can exclude people not receiving unemployment benefits ( which according to which state can run out quickly). What is unemployment rate amongst UK citizens vs all workers in UK ?

Red Eric Dec 9th 2016 12:50 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12125209)
I haven't studied matter but on recent trip to UK I had observation that the way the benefit system is structured, there is a lot of disincentive for lower skilled British workers to take lower wage jobs as the benefit system makes it advantageous to stay on benefits and perhaps make some cash on the side. Perhaps if less EU workers this could have effect of driving wages in lower paid jobs up to point where it is more advantageous to work than live off benefits,

Sorry :confused: - how did you get that impression? If it was just from casual chat with a random sample of people, why on earth would you be inclined to believe that, knowing (as I presume you do) that successive UK governments have actually restructured the welfare system entirely several times over, sometimes specifically with the stated intention of making work pay and providing disincentives to those inclined to refuse even zero hours contracts? The last government made 18bn of cuts (note - cuts, not savings) to welfare and is poised to make another 12bn over the course of this parliament.

As regards fewer EU workers driving wages up, I posted a link a day or two back about a study by the NIESR, whose research concluded that reductions in the number of EU migrants would have minimal effect on raising wages in low paid work (to the tune of less than 1%, to be specific).

Lion in Winter Dec 9th 2016 12:53 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 12124922)
Surely something of a contradiction in view of the record number of Eu immigrants who have arrived in the country supposedly looking for work. :confused:

I sincerely hope you don't have them all down as being benefit scroungers, criminals and terrorists,

......or is that why you decribe them as "Dreaded Immigrants" ?

Exactly how much sarcasm has to drip off my posts before you get it?


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